Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
So is sin.
:-)
Thanks for the thoughts.
My point is that there is collaboration to "drive them nuts". This was NOT about Forum rules or propriety but adduced in the face of assertions from the other side that they just love us to pieces and, outside of their ministry to the lurkers, they only have our best interests at heart. I'm sure that's true of some of them. I have reason to believe it is not true of all of them, especially in the face of frank statements that the style of response is determined not by the argument or the person being responded to but in the interests of the poor lurkers who without being watched night and day might fall into the slough of Romanism.
AND, I wasn't in general appealing to FR/RM/Religion Forum rules, excellent though they be. I was appealing to an older legislation.
Do to no one what you yourself dislike. Give to the hungry some of your bread, and to the naked some of your clothing. Seek counsel from every wise man. At all times bless the Lord God and ask him to make all your paths straight and to grant success to all your endeavors and plans.How can we Catholics abide this stuff!
Nonsense.
Speaking the truth is not automatically equal to abuse per se. Sheesh.
If the kitchen is too hot, other thread categories are readily available.
Prottys manage to fail to whine and flail when relentless RC pontifications assault our sensibilities routinely, horribly and sometimes meanly.
Doesn’t mean we are happy masochists, either.
There’s certainly enough hideousness to go around.
And, hierarchical organizations CAN SOMETIMES prevent some things that are ugly and demonic.
Such oligarchys can also promote and infect more relentlessly and ruthlessly.
Reggie: I'm feeling left out.
If you're interested in joining the Vast Reformed Wing Conspiracy I can email the particulars.
We're having a meeting this weekend in Toledo but that 's all I can tell you in the open forum, after all I can't give away the gameplan.....
Sounds like a wise, fitting and functionally manageable boundary.
I Love to see Holy Spirit’s wisdom in your management of this herd of cats.
Congrats.
What a minute, what country is this?
I'm pinging an actual lawyer to see what he thinks about this...
That projection of motives onto Prottys is wholesale inaccurate in my experience and perception.
I don’t know of any Protty who desires to drive any RC nuts.
1. RC’s don’t drive very well—particularly hereon.
2. encouraging RC’s to go to their Bibles is much preferred to going nuts.
Thankfully, The Lord has been very faithful in enabling me to do unto RC’s and others hereon as I’d prefer to be done to me . . . in all my postings.
I kid you not.
Will you be at our top-secret collaborative meeting this weekend?
INDEED.
But participants might should be reminded that they need to allow time for the ‘treasure hunt’ to round up all the decoder rings and peep stones needed for deciphering the presentations.
***peep stones***
Darn! I knew I forgot something....
That depends on whether my UFO is out of the shop or not. And the mechanic keeps telling me that’s classified information.
Perhaps I’ll just have to be there in spirit. But then, how can I carry all the decoder rings and peep stones required?
Pondering . . .
That was almost precisely Y reaction! he has to prove his innocence? What kind of a deal is THAT?
But is was assured repeatedly that "doubts persisted" of someone's bona fides and, in fact, advice was given on how he might give assurances that he was who he said he was!
I think it's repellent, but evidently that's the way these Protestants thought business should be done.
When you contact your attorney friend, do be sure to tell him that this is not a US court or a court in the English common law tradition. This is what some Protestants on Free Republic maintained, a kind of FR star chamber.
I have made an allegation. My veracity is being called into question. The people to whom I refer are probably (but not certainly) reading this thread.
We will see if they will stand by and watch an unjust accusation being made or if they will say what they know.
This is one of the few times in my life when I'm confident that I am right, and consequently the denials and mockery of others will just roll off my back.
Enjoy yourselves.
HOGWASH!
Plenty of things that are not known are not therefore untrue. One has to have a pretty global self-concept to adduce one's ignorance as proof of something's non-existence.
HOGWASH!
If speaking the truth were what was going on, I'd have no complaint.
Thankfully, The Lord God Almighty knows the truth.
BTW, I did NOT say that 0.000% of Prottys are interested in driving SOME RC’s to DISTRACTIONS.
THAT’s a different issue.
LOL.
I’m a BIT surprised that some RC’s fail to believe that all my posting is done with the lifelong UNTO OTHERS AS UNTO SELF rule.
Perhaps it’s a case of an incapacity to believe it for others because it’s so rare with one’s self. But I really don’t know about that. Too hard for me to discern such internal nuances in such complexity.
HOGWASH! GTTM!
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