Hard to observe things when one has blinders on.
Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Hard to observe things when one has blinders on.
Well, and for those who already have a relationship with our Lord, which I would say of many of our opponents here, somehow she seems to be a catalyst to the deepening of that relationship.
First of all, if the shoe fits...secondly, try to not be thin-skinned. Thin-skinned posters are the disrupters on open threads, or so we are told.
Lots of times, the replies are directed to the comment made, not a particular poster. I do that lots of times, without always noticing to whom my reply is directed. :D
Yep, we know it's false because, well, because, uh, well, it just is, so there.
Amen, and well said. Sometimes I am sad for the depth they miss, seems to be fear holding them back. God bless them!
It's wood peckers. The disk is a round of oak from the last tree to fall. It spins slowly and they peck bits into it. It works pretty good, but we haven't figured out how to retrieve any data from it yet.
It did, in fact, answer a post addressed directly to me from you.
My "cowardly" comment stands.
Oh, I'm sure it does. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand the sting of an insult is directly proportional to respect for the one doing the insulting.
That is very good insight.
For what it's worth I don't believe an absolutely perfect version of the Bible exists in any language. I do believe most of the authorized Catholic and Protestant Bibles are "sufficiently" good however.
Yes, it could be that you are making God angry. Just because your church is old doesn’t mean it’s been absolutely correct all these years. If you’d stick to preaching Jesus and get away from the Mariology and some of the other trimmings, you’d be getting it right.
Sorry. I don’t know what other protestant churches do. I think it depends on their pastor. Sorry I can’t be of help there. We do study it on our own and get a chance to delve into it more deeply than we would just listening to it in church. We have our Bibles with us and use them when the pastor does his sermon, but what other churches do, I really don’t know.
That is true. Yet, since a lot of what we believe to make Christ our saviour is tradition, or hearsay, Jews say Jesus is just a prophet. It doesn't make them right.
If that were true, I wouldn't have had to go to the Catholic Church to receive relief from the torture of my own iniquity and sin.
I gave the "Bible-only" twenty years to make good on the promises of the Bible...it never did. Partaking of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, DID.
He sounds like a Messianic Jew to me but maybe not. Only a guess.
WHen I was training as a hospital chaplain, by supervisor, blessings be upon his soul, told me to make sure I knew what my expectations were before I made a "call", so that I wouldn't be thrown when they weren't met.
There's nothing like needing something to be true to get in the way of seeing how it is and how it isn't. You've got to hand ourself over to God, expectations and all, and tell Him to take charge before you go researching the Bible. Otherwise it can be little more than an inkblot in which you see only what you brought.
May God forgive me all the times I started telling Him what His Word says. And may He be praised forever for all the times he yanked my chain and said, "Not so fast, buster."
Where I live DSL is ONE mile away! There are so few people in my area that I’ll be waiting another 10 years.
I can’t even get Verizon yet.
I hate when they just link you to youtube and don’t put in a synopsis.
I can do some serious surfing at the parish hall though.
Too bad they messed it up along the way...
Very true and very well said.
And they do share the anti-Catholic disease. The boss-lady and I were on vacation and taking a train (we're train nuts) from LA to Ventura and we got into a chat with a conductor and his honey, It was fine as long as we stuck to the civil war (diagnostic technique: Call "Bull Run" "First Manassas" and see if they blink.)
But when they heard we were RCs they went into a tirade against the RC Church,. I was in pastoral mode so I didn't remind him that I was a customer and on vacation and he could at least try a little politeness. But it was as if I'd waved a red flag in front of a bull ....
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