The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: Sorry, but I’m wholesale unconvinced to the max.

You’ll have to take that up with our Heavenly Father when you meet him to justify you life’s actions.

[Uri’el-2012]

In the macro sense, is this wikipedia entry fairly accurate?

Yes.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua

[Judith Anne]

I’m lost. I don’t recall what I said! LOL.

Color me skeptical.

[Quix]

God is with all who wish to be with Him.

= =

I prefer to put it as God did:

THOSE WHO [earnestly] SEEK HIM, SHALL FIND HIM.

[OLD REGGIE]

Unaware that he was an angel, Tobit and Tobias asked Raphael for assistance and when he told them what he was he also told them that he reminded God of the prayers they had made to Him.

Tobit 6:
[1] Now as they proceeded on their way they came at evening to the Tigris river and camped there.
[2] Then the young man went down to wash himself. A fish leaped up from the river and would have swallowed the young man;
[3] and the angel said to him, "Catch the fish." So the young man seized the fish and threw it up on the land.
[4] Then the angel said to him, "Cut open the fish and take the heart and liver and gall and put them away safely."
[5] So the young man did as the angel told him; and they roasted and ate the fish. And they both continued on their way until they came near to Ecbatana.
[6] Then the young man said to the angel, "Brother Azarias, of what use is the liver and heart and gall of the fish?"
[7] He replied, "As for the heart and liver, if a demon or evil spirit gives trouble to any one, you make a smoke from these before the man or woman, and that person will never be troubled again.
[8] And as for the gall, anoint with it a man who has white films in his eyes, and he will be cured."

And you wonder why it never made it into the Hebrew Canon?

[Judith Anne]

The Roman church; the edifice and political power mongering structure in Rome and with the leader claiming to be leader of all Christendom, was founded after the Pagan Council at Nicea

HOGWASH! There is an unbroken succession of popes, beginning with St. Peter. You can look it up. Of course, if protestants don't allow for sacred tradition, they'll miss a bit of church history;

[trisham]

Particularly when you're dealing with sola scriptura protties, raised to be rabid anti-Catholic, frothing at the mouth obsessives.

*****************

Have some compassion. Life is difficult for those whose only amusement is to be anti-something else. Never pro, never positive, never creative, since it's all but a mouthing of what they have learned in their religion.

Imagine that you belong to a religion that was born of another, whose very existence relies upon the repudiation of that original Church, whose very credibility hinges on the constant denigration of another.

[Quix]

Oh, sheesh . . .

let me substitute the Chinese for blood brothers.

Christ had “wet brothers” the normal, natural way BY MARY AND JOSEPH.

Wet brothers vs emotional brothers which are called “dry brothers” or “dry sons” in Chinese . . . for obvious reasons.

[Judith Anne]

It’s amazing how the Holy Spirit can do that but they totally emasculate Him when it comes to protecting the Church from error. Another example of making God in the image of man.

The hazards of sola scriptura, and rabid anti-Catholicism. If you think about it, some protties who believe this are very close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.....:(

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: And you wonder why it never made it into the Hebrew Canon?

That would be incorrect. Some Jews used it and some did not, depending on where they lived. The area where Jesus grew up used scripture that did include Tobit.

[mgist]

Imagine that you belong to a religion that was born of another, whose very existence relies upon the repudiation of that original Church, whose very credibility hinges on the constant denigration of another.

I guess that explains a lot. Thanks.

[Mad Dawg]

Well of course Protestants have tradition. They even have cleverly designed fables! Of which one is that the so-called “Roman Church” was founded at Nicea. Since they are not united in organization or in Doctrine, hatred of Catholicism serves a purpose of giving them a common enemy and bolsters the rest of their attempts at theological systems.

[OLD REGGIE]

What an interesting defence to what you call pagan fable. Peter died in Rome. That is not only Catholic history it is human history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter

Wikipedia is far from a reliable scholarly source. Even so:

"Tradition also locates his burial place where the Basilica of Saint Peter was later built, directly beneath the Basilica's high altar."

Tradition is not history.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: some protties who believe this are very close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.....:(

Indeed. If you think about it, since the Catholic Church IS the Church founded by Jesus Christ and protected by the Holy Spirit, attacks against It are forms of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

The sickness of their hearts, so evident in their demeanor and vociferous calumny, demonstrate how deeply seated that blasphemy is.

It is incumbent on us to pray for the salvation of their immortal souls.

[Quix]

Thanks for your surprising welcome. Much appreciated.

I was not sure if I was glad or sad to see the uhhhhh

obstreperousness flaming brightly without me.

I think I was glad that folks could see I was not the only author of heat vs light. I was sad that so much of it still seemed to be, sounded like, read like mean-spirited bile and bitterness from some folks.

That I deplore.

I have no ill-will toward any RC individuals I know hereon.

I don’t even have ill-will towards the !!!!TRADITION!!!! Roman edifice.

I do have a lot of vigorous hostility regarding excesses and errors I’m convinced keep SOME of my RC brothers and sisters either at unncessary arm’s length from God or at risk for God being rather upset with them over serious issues like idolatry, blasphemy, arrogance and the like.

Certainly all individuals are vulnerable to such human faililngs. It just has increasingly appeared and felt like the RC edifice overtly (& knowingly though fiercely denied) aids and abets such much more so than most other denominational magistericals.

I would love to see it otherwise. I’d more love for it to be otherwise. I have to deal with what I observe to be and what appears to be reality. I owe that to my Lord and to RC’s whom I care about.

However, I’m certainly an equal opportunity . . . exhorter! LOL. I receive all the even personal assaults and prayerfully consider them.

May you and your loved ones have a blessed June full of The Lord’s Provision, Peace, wholeness, intimacy.

[Quix]

BTW, I think the ET’s know I’m off limits by virtue of the Blood fo Jesus.

[Quix]

Such a sweetly touching message.

What a gift.

[Quix]

make the anti-Catholic fetishists squeal

= =

I’ve never observed any “anti-Roman Catholic fetishists” hereon.

Certainly not from the regular Protty posters to such threads.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: BTW, I think the ET’s know I’m off limits by virtue of the Blood fo Jesus.

More the reason to become Catholic and receive Him in the Eucharist: Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

I am glad you are safe and back raising our cackles!

[Judith Anne]

Feeble, I’d say.

For all the fuss about the “RC edifice” of dogma, it sure beats heck out of the self-contradictory squabbling of the protties.