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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: big'ol_freeper

No. I think the more reliable unrubberized histories make that quite clear enough.


1,621 posted on 06/03/2008 4:30:15 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Judith Anne

I’m truly puzzled.

Is there someone who actually wishes to defend the proposition of the infallibility of the KJV translators? On what authority could that possibly be maintained?


1,622 posted on 06/03/2008 4:30:18 PM PDT by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: big'ol_freeper; Alex Murphy; alpha-8-25-02; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; ...

No. It’s a form of truth telling designed to put the truth before the lurkers at least near as often as the historical falsehoods; the UnBiblical falsehoods and the like.


1,623 posted on 06/03/2008 4:31:53 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: big'ol_freeper
I am glad you are safe and back raising our cackles!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

1,624 posted on 06/03/2008 4:33:13 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: Judith Anne

Sounds like we are in different galactic clusters on opposite sides of the Multi-verse.


1,625 posted on 06/03/2008 4:33:33 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix
BTW, I think the ET’s know I’m off limits by virtue of the Blood fo Jesus.

Symbolicly, according to what I've read from protties here. Fortunately, Catholics have the real thing: "This is my blood, shed for you and for many."

1,626 posted on 06/03/2008 4:33:59 PM PDT by Judith Anne (..)
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To: Philo-Junius
Is there someone who actually wishes to defend the proposition of the infallibility of the KJV translators? On what authority could that possibly be maintained?

You would be SHOCKED!

1,627 posted on 06/03/2008 4:34:41 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: trisham
In all honesty there is also the fact that the Catholic church coverted millions of people around the world after Jesus' death. Just one example is the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe (http://www.michaeljournal.org/guadalupe.htm ) in 1953. It was one of many apparitions in our church history. This was the event that led million of Mexican indians to Jesus.

These people tended to mix there native traditions, which were certainly pagan, with Catholism. Similar tendencies happened in Africa, Asia, and the Americas. I can see how some would see that influence of pagan culture, mixed with their limited Catholic knowledge of the time, and misunderstand Catholic teaching. Some of that mixture of culture and religion exsists to this day. I've seen some distortion of Catholic beliefs in Cuban households. I will certainly, lovingly remind them, that it is NOT Catholic. Those instances are really the exception. The Cathechism of the Catholic Church should clear up any of those doubts. I don't think too many of those who slander the "RC" have bothered to read the Cathechism.

1,628 posted on 06/03/2008 4:35:01 PM PDT by mgist (Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hear)
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To: Quix

Probably safest that way. But, no matter how far away a person is from Mary, she can still hear the faintest, neediest prayer....trust her, Quix, she’ll help you find Jesus...


1,629 posted on 06/03/2008 4:37:25 PM PDT by Judith Anne (..)
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To: mgist

Sorry, the Apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe and the subsequent conversions began in 1531. TYPO


1,630 posted on 06/03/2008 4:37:30 PM PDT by mgist (Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hear)
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To: DungeonMaster
Now I can see why that silly book was removed.

It was not removed. It was never accepted as cannonical by the Jews, the only religous authority which had that mandate. Not the Catholics. Not the Protestants. The Jews and only the Jews!

Romans 3:
[1] Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?
[2] Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God.

To add to the oracles of God given to the Jews is to defy the will of God.

1,631 posted on 06/03/2008 4:38:49 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Philo-Junius
I have no idea what authority they use. Their own interpretation of scripture, whatever authority that is.
1,632 posted on 06/03/2008 4:40:06 PM PDT by Judith Anne (..)
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To: Mad Dawg
Does anybody else smell burned hash file or something? I’m getting told there’s a post #1459 but the display stops at #1453. Plus my last attempted reply came up with no addressee.

Catch a giant fish, smoke it, and rub the gall in your eyes. Try it. It is Scripture.
1,633 posted on 06/03/2008 4:42:39 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: XeniaSt

I will study it and the pdfs. Thanks.


1,634 posted on 06/03/2008 4:44:26 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: OLD REGGIE

And bathing seven times in the Jordan will cure leprosy.

That’s biblical, too, isn’t it?

Or should we jettison any of the parts we find to defy our understanding of natural law, like Jefferson?


1,635 posted on 06/03/2008 4:46:20 PM PDT by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

The Septuagint, including Tobit, was compiled by Jews from among their holiest writings. It was the closest thing the Jews had to canon, as demonstrated by the strong preference for it in New Testament quotations, until the anti-Christian Pharisees decided, sometime around the turn of the first century, that they needed to reboot the canon by excluding anything which did not meet their carefully contrived arbitrary exclusions.

Preferring the canon of the Pharisees to the canon of the New Testament writers is indeed a strange alley down which to be led in defence of Chritian scriptural authority.


1,636 posted on 06/03/2008 4:51:19 PM PDT by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: Petronski
I will study it and the pdfs. Thanks.

May Yahshua our wonderful Moshiac bless you and keep you, and may he
cause his face to shine upon you, and grant you his shalom. May our
master, who has already conquered sin, cover Yisrael with divine
protection. May her enemies be scattered and flattened, bowing at the
feet of Yahshua in teshuvah. May they be renewed before it is too late....

1,637 posted on 06/03/2008 4:58:13 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Quix
I’ve never observed any “anti-Roman Catholic fetishists” hereon.

Okay, thanks.

1,638 posted on 06/03/2008 5:04:39 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: papertyger
... regarding a post neither to you, nor about you.

Oh? Then it makes sense that you addressed your reply exclusively to me.

My "cowardly" comment stands.

1,639 posted on 06/03/2008 5:07:07 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Mad Dawg; XeniaSt
Okay, I've got the intro (which forbids me to copy it on my disk and read it at my leisure.)

Go ahead. Do it. You do have a hard disk out in the boonies don't you? :)
1,640 posted on 06/03/2008 5:09:56 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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