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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: wagglebee; Philo-Junius; Petronski

NAU Matthew 12:
46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother
and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.

47 Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers
are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
Matthew reports that he and the crowd thought that Yah'shua had a mother and brothers.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
1,161 posted on 06/02/2008 5:01:13 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Mad Dawg
Wow, if not, then I bet I’ve been misunderstood right much.

Well, you DO "worship" the Blessed Virgin Mary, statues, the Pope and your priest; so, you're wrong about a lot!

1,162 posted on 06/02/2008 5:03:46 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: OLD REGGIE

A Dr Huetter at Duke came in as a prof of either religion or theology and was methodist. Now he’s Catholic and a lay Dominican, and still a prof at Duke in the Religion Dept.


1,163 posted on 06/02/2008 5:05:29 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg

BTW, here is a link to our Parish. We are very blessed and if you’re ever in MI, stop by.

http://www.saintcyrils.org/

We’ve even been mentioned on EWTN!


1,164 posted on 06/02/2008 5:06:45 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Ironmom. (but really made from Gold plated titanium))
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To: XeniaSt; Philo-Junius; Petronski

That’s all well and good, but where does Matthew say that Mary had other children? Also, if what you believe is true, why did Jesus violate the Law in entrusting His mother to John?


1,165 posted on 06/02/2008 5:08:18 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: OLD REGGIE
First, unless you are intent on deliberately insulting those Christian brothers you "love" you should make a special effort to capitalize a proper noun. In this case Protestant.

So you'd agree that failure to capitalize Magisterium is an insult? ( I wouldn't, but then capitalizing is kind of hit or miss at my keyboard. )

Is there a use of Protestant that is NOT a proper noun, but still pertains to religion?

1,166 posted on 06/02/2008 5:08:18 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: XeniaSt
Matthew reports that he and the crowd thought that Jesus had a mother and brothers.

That is a mistranslation into the Greek from the Aramaic Christ spoke.

1,167 posted on 06/02/2008 5:09:50 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Philo-Junius
Additionally, the Liturgy of the Hours provides readings from every book of the Catholic Bible, along with selections from Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church, in a one-year cycle.

This is totally irrelevant to the point. Either show me where I was wrong or move on.
1,168 posted on 06/02/2008 5:10:30 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Mad Dawg

Actually, protestant is NOT a proper noun. It refers to several/many/thousands of different groups.


1,169 posted on 06/02/2008 5:11:07 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
So do you believe, as you earlier stated, that "all matters of faith are dubious?"

Since the poster that I was addressing with that remark seemed to understand my meaning I don't feel compelled to elaborate. Especially in light of your consistent propensity to disregard or ignore the facts as they are presented to you, which I had assumed was a result of a deep-seated maliciousness or need for attention, but it might be that I have just simply overestimated your abilities.

Or is this like saying "Mary is a co-redeemer but not really?"

I told you a few weeks ago what the catechism had to say on the subject of Mary. Obviously, you prefer other sources that support what you believe. This subject doesn't interest me.

1,170 posted on 06/02/2008 5:12:07 PM PDT by LordBridey
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To: XeniaSt

I don’t call my adopted sister anything but my sister. If people looked at her they would know that we are not blood related, she is African/American, but people still don’t say, “Your adopted sister wants to talk to you.” they call her my sister and she is.

My nephew has a half brother. No one says to him, “Hey, your dad and Half Brother are outside”, they say, “Your dad and brother are outside.”

What you have quoted proves nothing in the scheme of things.


1,171 posted on 06/02/2008 5:12:38 PM PDT by netmilsmom (I am Ironmom. (but really made from Gold plated titanium))
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To: wagglebee
"Your insinuation was that the ONLY place a Catholic read the Bible was in Mass,..."

Untrue!
1,172 posted on 06/02/2008 5:12:56 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: wagglebee

I would have thought that debates over adelphoi, stepbrothers and anepsios were beaten to death by now.

A literal translation of the Greek text does not decisively dispose of the issue.

What remains is centuries-old tradition dating back to the first century set against the desire to bring the Blessed Virgin down a peg.


1,173 posted on 06/02/2008 5:13:59 PM PDT by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Then why did you bring it up? What difference does it make if the entire Bible is read in the Mass schedule or not if you know that Catholics read the Bible outside church just as Protestants do?


1,174 posted on 06/02/2008 5:15:59 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: OLD REGGIE

I don’t mean to imply you are wrong. Neither the Daily Missal nor the Liturgy of the Hours pretends to be a complete recapitulation of the entire Bible.

An educated, pious Catholic ought to own and study all three.


1,175 posted on 06/02/2008 5:16:01 PM PDT by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: Mad Dawg
A Dr Huetter at Duke came in as a prof of either religion or theology and was methodist. Now he’s Catholic and a lay Dominican, and still a prof at Duke in the Religion Dept.

Oh wow! Those Protestant Theologians are just flocking to the Catholic Church.
1,176 posted on 06/02/2008 5:17:36 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Petronski
XS>Matthew reports that he and the crowd thought that Jesus had a mother and brothers.

That is a mistranslation into the Greek from the Aramaic Christ spoke.

Playing the old pagan fable of Aramaic.

You are denying the plain fact that the Holy Spirit
breathed the Word in Koine Greek.

Grieve the Holy Spirit ?

b'SHEM Yah'shua
1,177 posted on 06/02/2008 5:17:37 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Philo-Junius

You haven’t been here long enough, NOTHING is “beaten to death” around here. Protestants recycle FIVE basic anti-Catholic arguments (the Blessed Mother, Peter/Papacy, the Eucharist, Tradition and Purgatory) like clockwork.


1,178 posted on 06/02/2008 5:18:43 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: XeniaSt; Petronski
You are denying the plain fact that the Holy Spirit breathed the Word in Koine Greek.

It was a CONVERSATION that the Lord had with bystanders, the Holy Spirit WAS NOT talking.

1,179 posted on 06/02/2008 5:21:03 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
if what you believe is true, why did Jesus violate the Law in entrusting His mother to John?

What is the Mitzvah ?

1,180 posted on 06/02/2008 5:22:51 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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