Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I just deleted a long discussion that I have no business posting. I’m too much of a professional, still, after all these years of retirement. What you want to believe is your business.
I am assured that Christ is my Lord. It is through my faith and my Catholicism with the working Holy Spirit I know this. Baptism is a sign and a sacrament. The Eucharist is The Sacrament and the Body and Blood of Christ under the form of bread and wine, changed at consecration and re-presenting that holy time of Christ’s passover; He the paschal lamb. It is a window in time that was created at that moment and in God’s time is one.
Believe what you want. I look to Christ for my salvation.
Adieu.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the shoe on the other foot.
That's OK. It will be a nice addition to my RC files. We Prottys already knew there was one play book for RC's and another the RC edifice holds for everyone else. No big surprise. Just kind of nice to see it stated so brazenly.
Doesn’t sound like the RC retreat center at Pecos, NM would be a very good fit.
If that were true of MarySecretary or any of us, we would be wrong.
By the grace of God, we have learned that truth is what the word of God reveals to us. And those words will be used for judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:36-37"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
And what words are those we are to use as a light to know the truth?
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. " -- John 6:63
INDEED.
Of course, the magicstericals are exempt from Scripture, just ask them.
Indeed,Dear Friend.
I find this particular thread of over 11,000 posts on FR to be the most vile and have decided to not be involved.
The way some people treat the Blessed Mother here has moves me to tears at times.
Only prayer and fasting can drive this type of evil out!
I wish you a Blessed day!
That’s a big reason why I’m praying and fasting . . . though from a decidedly DIFFERENT perspective.
Indeed, dear friend.
I leave with this prayer as my answer to them:
Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host -
by the Divine Power of God -
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, Have mercy on us.
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, Have mercy on us.
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, Have mercy on us.
Amen.
Indeed. Wade into this cesspool at your own risk.
Interesting prayer.
Is it RC believe that they can petition
an angel
no less . . . sigh . . .
to cast
satan
no less . . .
before his time into the pit? Is this another example of the magisterical trumping Scripture, over-ruling Scripture?
Prottys might apologize for that but we can take no responsiblity for the doings entirely of the RC edifice reps.
It doesn't say anything about "before his time". And it DOES say, "by the power of God". (What other power is there?)
Look, it's like this: When I say, "Thy will be done," is there any question that anyone else's will is going to be done? But so I am, we are, instructed to pray.
And certainly in that act of praying that way, we are implicitly asking God to conform our wills to His: "God, me, personally, I'd like the Dodgers to come back to Brooklyn and then win the World Series, but I'm not saying that, I'm saying, 'Thy will be done.' So I'm really saying, 'I don't care about MY will, except that I want more and more to choose whatever it is that you chose.'"
So in the prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel, I'm not expecting to change the timetable so much as to contribute, by my prayers, to the timetable as it's presented.
We are instructed to pray. Why? It makes no sense. But orders is orders. So we pray. Maybe, somehow our prayers are useful to God, not what He needs, but what He likes to use.
Yeah, there multiple personalities (sometimes in the same body) and it’s sometimes hard to keep track.
I understand completely. Thanks for the reply.
***I await with bated breath the definitive treatise on “The Abuse Button, Theory and Practice, with Consideration of the Care and Feeding of Moderators”***
I just try to remember that we are playing in their sandbox with their rules and they are the referees. It is beneath us to whine and cry, and if they miss some outrageous action against us, let us hope that they will miss the equivalent from one of us. However if they don’t, tough.
***In other words, unless OR is satisfied that one’s personal testimonials are trustworthy, then one really ought to stick to trustworthy sources such as CNN and the NYT.
It ain’t true unless it passes the Old Reggie lie detector. ***
My mistake; the ultimate OR lie detector is this: agreement with OR.
***Illegal?***
Nope. Are you?
***He shows the root causes of many diseases; diabetes, cancer, arthritis, etc. I haven’t read anything out of the book in a long time so I don’t remember all of what it entails***
You don’t have to go to a dubious faith healer in a profession replete with frauds for that.
***If it ain’t written in the Catechism, it just ain’t true! LOL. They don’t seem to consider that God is NOT in their little box.
11,448 posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 10:09:20 PM by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL) ***
You mean this post?
I’ve only been here for 17 years and I will classify myself in the upper range for linguistic ability in English. No discernable accent (for the MidWest anyway).
Of course it helps that I grew up with the Queen’s English as spoken in Southern Ontario. :)
I find it difficult to dumb down posts for specific consumption to words of one syllable or less, however, I try when the occasion demands it.
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