Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Yes and yes.
Yes, what you say is true, however, that makes it now, that we have millions of people, who say they are led by the Holy Spirit, yet they all have differing beliefs...of course, there is discernment and knowledge of the Bible, to at least figure out for yourself, if you believe that someone is led by the Holy Spirit...but as we have seen, just on this thread alone, time and time again, even with Biblical knowledge, many wind up interpreting the very same Scriptural verses in very different ways...so there again, they cannot all be led by the Holy Spirit, and the way one person interprets Biblical Scripture differs, sometimes in a small way, sometimes in a grand way, from one person to the next...
So, it can and does happen, that someone can say they are led by the Holy Spirit, and one person, depending on how they interpret Scriptures, will not believe it, and then another person, interpreting Scriptures differently will believe it...
I read them. I'm just trying to learn who teaches the Assumption of Mary is a plan of salvation.
It's kind of amusing though to observe those who rail against Tradition but buy into the whole man-made tradition of sola scriptura.
Pius XII ex cathedra, ever read his Munificentissimus Deus proclamation. You don't believe and even question the Assumption you are gone from the CATHOLIC (Universal CHRISTIAN) faith. Even face the wrath of God plus Peter and Paul. I.E the DOGMA of the Assumption is a plan for salvation.
Failed to answer my “simple” questions, called the questions bile, how else would one take it?
Post 11,144.
Even more amusing.
Who knows what time we have left?
Not much... I don't know anyone who isn't saying it is very soon, even at the door.
The Dutch Empire was Protestant and most of the ones left aren’t Catholic at all. Interesting conjecture, that’s all.
Nor are there any left that are particularly Protestant either... It is an interesting conjecture... I had tried to make the US fit as Babylon, but it really doesn't work... So I had already tried on the whole Protestant Empires thing.
[Idolatry. Always with the idolatry. Just look what happened to Israel]
A lot has, yet they are STILL identified as God’s chosen people.
And they always will be... but:
(e-Sword:KJV) Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
We worship God on the Lord’s Day, not on Sabbath.
I do too, but it is a practice I am very close to correcting. The Sabbath day is the Sabbath day. Sunday worship was instituted by Rome.
[Bowing down to Mary and the Pope]
Are you of the non-kneeling persuasion?
My church does not kneel, nor do I every time (as in a quick prayer during the day, or at the dinner table), but I do kneel when formally seeking God when praying in devotions, or at my evening and morning prayers.
Why, is that important somehow?
Part of my “bile” was a quote form Munificentissimus Deus.
Can’t be saved outside the Catholic can you? Which is it?
Part of the RCC dogma/plan for salvation is blindly believing the Assumption. Don’t know what is so confusing. You need to believe the Assumption to be saved/part of the “true” Church. Another reason I left the RCC, can’t get there stories straight.
What is the amusing part? Having Proties face the wrath of God for not believing a legend? How about Peter? What about Paul, what king of wrath will he dish out on the Proties/those that question the Assumption?
The only amusing part of Pius’ XII Munificentissimus Deus is the arrogance displayed.
Forgive me “can’t be save outside the Catholic Church”.
Sorry about my sloppy fingers.
Obviously you cannot, since you said this:
Which Apostle taught the Assumption as a plan of salvation?
The Assumption is not A plan of salvation. It is PART of the Truth revealed to us by God, through His Church, founded by God the Son and guided to this day by God the Holy Spirit.
But Protestants believe a legend (amongst others) - the one about sola scriptura. It is amusing that some run around accusing others of belief in legends while they hold sola scriptura as doctrine.
It matters to the people who sneer about the Catholic Church keeping the Bible from its faithful.
LOL! Yes, I am sure there were a lot of Latin speaking Germans. Thank you for pointing that out.
One of your compatriots sneered about how she couldn’t remember the Church distributing a lot of Latin Bibles.
Jesus answers. Mary doesn’t.
Your church doesn’t always make things abundantly clear. Scripture does because that’s how He planned it for us.
Depends on who is reciting YOUR church history. Some of it isn’t so good, is it?
1 Timothy 3:15 [I write] so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
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