Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
The "bile" is the historical truth, based on a wobbly legend with no true traditional linkage to the actual event.
Instead of debate the cowards way is taken. When I encounter insults it's usually from a person who is on the ignorant position, i.e. incapable of a proper response . I will take this “bile” and continue to try an pound TRUE Apostolistic Catholic tradition, not RCC make it up as you go tradition (Again, wonder why it took 1500 years).
Who teaches the Assumption as a plan of salvation?
Pius XII and all who wanted the Assumption declared dogma.
Don't you read any of your earthly rulers proclamations?
Catholicism and its errors makes itself look bad. We only point it out for you.
Wonderful!
I’ve never heard any of that nonsense from any church or nondenominational church I’ve ever attended or visited. Tch, tch.
I’ll just ask again: who teaches the Assumption of Mary as a plan of salvation?
Try to respond without the personal attack, if you can.
Petronski, I have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and have had for 40 years. My life has changed dramatically for the better because of it. It sure as heck isn’t the devil guiding me, if that’s what you are inferring. I asked the Holy Spirit to come in and He did, which He says He will do when we ask Him. Try asking Him some time.
This justifies lying about history how, exactly?
Since just about every single Christian religion, large or small, or each little church, large or small, makes the claim that they are led by the Holy Spirit, and yet they maintain very often complete different beliefs, no doubt, some religions, and some churches contain errors, within their church’s framework...
I doubt that the Holy Spirit leads one religion to believe one thing, and then goes on, to lead another religion in believing quite the opposite, and then maybe leads another religion to a middle of the way understanding...and yet that is what we have...a myriad of religions, all of them claiming that they are the ones led by the Holy Spirit...
Where is that tradition?
How long did it take to grab hold?
How long did it take to declare anyone who even questions the assumption face the wrath of God?
Forgive those who look at the TRADITION of the Apostles and early Christians and not find a belief central to salvation, which Pius XII clearly states.
Are you another one of those RCC who do not read their earthly rulers proclamations?
I was once a proud member of the RCC, Pius XII thankfully woke me up in my slumber.
I’m not a Calvinist so your argument is not with me.
Try not presuming how I pray.
You replied to a discussion of Calvinism.
We aren’t lying. We’re trying to tell you the truth but you refuse it.
Trying and failing.
You really want to endorse what roamer_1 posted?
The Holy Spirit inhabits people, not churches or buildings (unless they are full of spirit-filled people). I don’t believe that everyone who says they are filled with the HS really are because their lives don’t reflect that. You have to have discernment and a knowledge of the Bible to know the difference.
By the way, calling an argument bile and then whining about personal attacks (Where) seems so childish (There, but I am dumbfounded by the hypocrisy of it all).
You are the one who is failing to understand because of what you’ve been taught/indoctrinated. Study on your own. Learn more of what God is really saying to you through His Word.
You suggested I took the coward’s way, yet you won’t answer a simple question. I’ll try again.
Who teaches the Assumption of Mary as a plan of salvation?
It’s not how you pray, it’s to whom you pray. Jesus? Mary?
He founded His Church to make that abundantly clear to us all.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.