Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Nice change of standards, oh you-who-so-recently-bragged-of-knowing-nothing-and-now-claim-to-know-everything.
***As if we have to go through some earthly emmisary for forgiveness of our sins when Christ is waiting to hear our every thought.***
John 20:
19
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
20
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. 13 The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21
14 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23
16 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
It sure looks like it. Is this another missing portion of Reformed theology?
Perhaps John 20 was torn out along with John 6.
Only Christ is "full of grace."
The RCC steals the honor reserved for Christ alone and gives it over to a creature.
That's strike two: another wild swing.
Your Greek needs work.
The Greek word describing Mary is clear- "Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was filled with grace in the past, a state which continues."
The Apostles were given gifts no other men have received since. In the first days of Christ's appearing, it was necessary to convert men through signs and wonders. The need for signs and wonders is over. The only sign we need is Christ risen from the cross, made known to us by God's grace through faith.
There is no evidence for any apostolic continuation of any supernatural powers. Rome has concocted this fiction to keep hold of men's minds by its fierce and threatening legality which Christ, by His grace alone, has freed some of us from. Thank God.
***Your Greek needs work.***
Judging by the quality of the submissions, I’d say that he needs to learn how to read first.
Pray for eyes to see there is only one who is "full of grace," "one mediator," "one redeemer," "one Christ."
***Nope. The Reformed adhere to every word of God.***
Really?
Do you adhere to Luke 14:
17
Then he took a cup, 6 gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves;
18
for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
19
7 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”
20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.
1 Cor 11:
23
11 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 12
28
A person should examine himself, 13 and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment 14 on himself.
and what is this bread and wine?
John 6:
32
So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
33
For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34
So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35
17 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.
36
But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe.
37
Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me,
38
because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.
39
And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day.
40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day.”
41
The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,”
42
and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43
Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring 18 among yourselves.
44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day.
45
It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.
46
Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.
47
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
48
I am the bread of life.
49
Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
50
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
52
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
If you do not eat the Body and Blood of Christ (and mock it), then according to verse 58, you will still die; those who eat this bread will live forever.
This proves that the Reformed do not adhere to every word of God. Your statement is refuted.
***Christ, by His grace alone, has freed some of us from***
Still maintaining the awful fiction of an elite clique?
Of course God demands that all people everywhere repent. God hates sin.
But the only men who do repent are those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, according to the will of God.
Are all men Christ's sheep? No, only the ones whom God draws to Him and are delivered to Him by Christ.
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." -- John 10:26"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65
You know the drill, they interpret it differently. Probably differently than most Methodists, 7th Day Adventists, Baptists, Church of Christ....
You know I can’t name them all.
Would you believe “ALMOST every word?”
Not at all.
...the angel's greeting to a young girl...
Do you mean the very messenger of God?
...into outlandish idolatry.
No idolatry. You continue to claim it, it continues to be false.
God's own Church, founded by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit.
...didn't believe in Mary's supposed assumption for over 18 centuries.
That teaching did not spring from nothingness in 1850. I will thank you, however, for giving the proper age of the Catholic Church, founded circa AD 32.
Scripture refutes this.
"...one mediator," "one redeemer," "one Christ."
Catholic teachings all.
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