Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
My original answer to the question of Esau, if some here will recall, is that there are different kinds of blessings. I used the examples from Matthew 5, in comparison.
And I asked the question, which I recall was never answered, are not long life, wealth, many children, and good health NOT blessings? Spiritual and physical blessings are quite different, as any good Calvinist should know (and should not need explained), but ALL blessings are blessings. If God blesses even those whom the Calvinists aver that He hates, then it only goes to show He is a God of Love and Life, NOT a God of death and hate.
Calvinists trip themselves up at every opportunity. Looking foolish must become a way of life for a robot and a puppet.
lol. Yep. And they’re both probably so busy glorifying God that they pay no mind to any of us.
Yawn. A dead God, manufactured by a sick old man, to sway the gullible who MUST have certainty or go insane.
So Calvinists don’t know who is elected and who isn’t?
What sort of claptrack is this now? All these postings speak of being among the elect and now they have no idea?
What a lost group of souls.
BTW, curses have a way of infecting one so I would suggest being careful of your interaction with those who do curse.
We cannot curse because it is forbidden by God for us to do so. The curse often rebounds upon the one who spoke it and we all know that the spoken word once uttered is not fogotten.
Sadly, the RCC side-tracks its members by pointing to "another Christ" and "other mediators" when Christ is our only refuge.
Again and again with the personal remarks.
Okay, have it your way -- you can't do better than then.
“”another Christ” and “other mediators” when Christ is our only refuge”
Curses and now deliberate distortions.
Elect, eh.
Σοφια! Προσκωμεν!
However, if you're thinking of The Bishop of Richmond, he did NOT authorize the use of Church funds and even Catholic Charities money was not used. According to what I'm hearing from the diocese the scandal was that it was a Catholic Charities Volunteer who had provided artificial birth control for the individual AND who organized the abortion, fraudulently signed the consent form, posing as a parent of the young woman. And it's not clear where the money came from, but they're saying it was not Catholic Charities money (so, much less was it Diocesan money.)
Another unclear thing is whether Catholic Charities answers to the local "Ordinary" or to the US College of Catholic Bishops. I'm waiting for clarification on that.
My suspicion is that (a)DiLorenzo is pretty good and (b) he is WAY better than his predecessor.
Markbsnr and Petronski were saying they would like some of the blessings of Esau. Even just one verse-worth.
Clearly, anyone reading past Genesis would know that Esau's fate is not to be coveted, while Jacob's is.
And still you guys persist in defending this indefensible error. I can only conclude you haven't read further than Genesis and have ignored the Scripture posted from Malachi, Jeremiah, Obediah and Romans.
Of course wagglebee can do better than that. That’s an old joke, badly told.
My comment was about the persistence of personal remarks. Do all Calvinists act as though the rules do not apply to them? Or are there special cases? “Elect” as it were?
That would be a mistake. Of course, a mistaken conclusion would be nothing unusual for a Calvinist.
Faith in Christ is a result of our regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God's grace to His own. We are saved by grace through faith.
"Be not afraid; only believe."
I'll trust Christ.
lol. You talk curses while upholding Trent?!?
It's bad to use bar-room jokes as a substitute for research. Penances are not given to obtain forgiveness. That's complete nonsense. YOu're talking to someone who makes a confession every AT LEAST 3 to 4 weeks.
Tip: If you want to know what Catholics teach, and what they are expected to believe, ask an informed Catholic. Do not ask someone whose ante in the game is to profess his anti-Catholicism. Even if he's right to disagree with us, he may not be a good source for what we actually teach.
For example, uou may not know that near the end of each confession the penitent is invited to say a prayer telling God (NOT telling the priest, as you present it, but telling GOD!) how sorry he is. And as a frequent penitent, I can tell you fer shur that I am not telling the priest INSTEAD of telling God, my sins.
We MAY be a Satanic cult, but not for the reasons you present. And you should ask yourself what kind of outfit peddles misinformation and remind yourself who the father of lies is.
Nuh-uh. That's what CALVIN SAYS Christ says is the marker of your status before God. The word according to Calvin? Is that it? A crazy, ludicrous old man who took advantage of the fears of the gullible? Robot puppet is definitely the right characterization.
I'll trust the Christ that I have created through my personal magisterical false interpretation of Holy Scripture, insuring He conforms to my personal world view.
Made it more accurate for you.
“For about the millionth time, none of us knows the names of the elect, but we can be rightly confident in our own salvation if we have been given true faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior...”
That sounds positively Catholic. We hope for our salvation through our faith in Christ.
Now, if I could only be assured that confidence is not pride. The sin of presumption is filled with pride.
You may make a decent Catholic yet.
The 23rd Psalm must be cold comfort for those who believe God is not working out His plan in their lives.
[[A Psalm of ? ]] The LORD wants to be my shepherd; I shall try my best. He suggests that I lie down in green pastures: he encourages me to walk beside the still waters. He advises me on self-help restoration of my soul: he recommends that I walk in the paths of righteousness for my sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I might fear some evil since I am basically on my own exercising my free will that You will not override; thy rod and thy staff are cold comfort to me since I am on my own. A table has been set by me in the presence of mine enemies but You will help me if I help myself: thou anointest my head with oil if I am good; my cup will run over ultimately if I make it.
Surely, I hope-fingers crossed, goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and there is a fifty-fifty chance I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever; that's if i don't make a mistake at the last minute.
According to New Advent, the sacrament of penance is "a sacrament of the New Law instituted by Christ in which forgiveness of sins committed after baptism is granted through the priest's absolution to those who with true sorrow confess their sins and promise to satisfy for the same."
Double-talk.
Those are your words, not mine. But thanks for wasting both our time.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.