Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Sorry, that makes no sense.
Scripture (KJV) makes up the only proof-texting offered at reformed.org for the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646 which is what I repeatedly reference.
Do you know how to read footnotes?
From this part in your post..
“Does God know what dress you will wear tomorrow?
If so, what are the chances you’ll go to your closet tomorrow and select that three-piece suit and matching hat?”
Yes, of course, God whose view of time, is obviously different from ours, can indeed see what I am going to select tomorrow to wear..He can see in advance, what I am going to wear, and I will indeed make that choice...however, the question I am posing, is did God make me so that I could make no other choice?...in other words, there is a difference between God seeing in advance what I am going to wear, and Him making me chose what to wear, because he programmed me that way....I just think that these are two different things...
Esau was hated by God. That's not my opinion. That's what God told us in Scripture.
Stop projecting.
It's unseemly and a waste of time.
What do denominations have to do with anything? All denominations are are a group of churches bound together by a covenant and bylaws, much the same as Dignity and Catholics for a Free Choice are bound together by a covenant and bylaws; one that used to be Calvinistic but moved away from its roots back at the turn of the 20th century and the others who still profess to be Catholics but have moved away from their roots.
True Calvinists have broken away or are in the process of breaking away from the PCUSA just as Anglicans are breaking away from TEC.
Just because some in the Catholic Church have ordained homosexuals or because a Bishop has recently authorized Church funds for an abortion does not mean that the Catholic Church condones the actions and neither does it mean that because the PCUSA which once was Calvinistic and condones abortion and homosexuality, Calvinists condone those actions.
And you wish that He show this same hatred to others?
why are we even here
Paraphrasing the Heidelburg Catechism, the purpose of life is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever.
Further, Paul tells us that the vessels created for God's mercy are to display His glory, while the vessels created for His wrath are to display His judgment.
AMEN!
No projection at all. What on earth can someone do, who is nothing but a puppet and a robot, to feel human? Those words were from your prayer, by the way.
I’ve known, personally, two Presyterian ministers. One drank, the other didn’t but his wife did. Now I know why.
KJV translation?
The Calvinist knows that by faith, whereas the Catholic would what? Know it by the price of the prayer cards stacked up in the corner of the sick room?
You said: Who’s the demi-god?
Anybody who derives their beliefs from the man-made tradition called Sola Scriptura. Those individuals create a warped picture of God and Jesus Christ that is as much of a abomination before God as atheism is. As a matter of fact they practice Atheistic Christianity because they believe in a dead God.
Perhaps we might be enjoying a case in point.
Do Calvinists think that Catholics have no faith?
Well, it’s a case of something. ‘In point’ will do as well as anything, I suppose.
Pretty lame answer to the mother/wife of dying child/husband, if you ask me.
LOL. Come on. You can do better than that.
“Calvin is dead”
And so is Mary.
Does the Catholic bible contain the books of Malachi and Obediah and Jeremiah and Romans?
All those books contain verses which tell us Esau was cursed by God and hated by God.
Keep reading the Bible. It can only do you good.
Again and again with the personal remarks.
Oh, I don't know...
Maybe they could glorify God in their thoughts, words and deeds.
Maybe they could raise strong children who kneel to none but Christ.
Maybe they could preach the Gospel to all men and know that God converts hearts and changes lives.
Maybe they could be grateful for every minute of their lives because every minute of their lives is a gift from God bringing them closer to Him.
Maybe they could even create a nation such as ours where Geneva's Presbyterian form of government, taken from the Bible, would become the norm for our representative form of government.
Maybe they could write books in praise of Him.
Maybe the could worship Him in truth and love.
Sure seems like a full day to me. Quite "human."
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