Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
***The only time the phrase “full of grace” is used in Scripture it is used to describe Jesus Christ.***
I suppose that Jesus’ nickname was Stephen, then, was it?
Acts 6:8.
My oh my, I thank God for the ability to fill in the empty spaces in your Bible where Scripture should be.
In her theology, she already has it made in the shade, fruits don’t matter, charity doesn’t matter, she’s going to Heaven, regardless of her actions.
They're not dead.
Nowhere in Scripture are we told to pray to anyone other than the Triune God.
Except for the Epistle of Straw, for starters.
But we are told by a few Catholics here that Esau was blessed.
Regardless of my intentions, are you now questioning their assessment of Esau? If you believe Esau was blessed and loved by God and rewarded, then why are you squawking?
Bolt on those ELECT vanity plates and enjoy the ride.
HA!
Calvinists -- as nasty as they wanna be!
We are told to preach sound doctrine according to Scripture, and to rebuke error.
***We are commanded to pray to God who knows what we need even before we ask, who gives us everything we have, and who answers every prayer.***
I thought that you said that everything is predestined. An answer is an act of volition. So is the prayer. Are you accusing the Reformed God of having His mind changed by a mortal? Sounds pretty weak to me.
***Prayer draws us closer to God and sanctifies our lives.***
I thought that the Holy Spirit did. Is the Reformed theology as mixed up as is posted here?
***Prayer is not the lottery.***
You can’t win if you don’t play.
INDEED.
Have often had such thoughts in pondering wealthy neighbors etc.
Imagine . . . that being THE BEST they’ll likely ever have.
Imagine an eternity of overwhelmingly relentless imprinting on their consciousness that such “best” was painful poison to all that might have been good and redemptive in their lives.
You mean your prayer (a work) sanctifies you? Those filthy rags?
***You chase the dream of living like Esau; me and mine will be content to be counted with Jacob.***
Umm, you’d have to follow God first. You know? Try Matthew chapters 5 through 9. Good luck with that.
Would you care to share what your "intentions" were when you made that post?
While your at it, I'm still very interested to know your thoughts and conformity to the remainder of the second chapter of Saint Paul's First Epistle to Timothy.
Is there only one kind of blessing?
Christ enumerated quite a few kinds of blessings, as I recall. Protestants may not be very familiar with “poor in spirit” or “peacemakers” or “merciful” but according to Christ those are indeed blessed states.
As are long life, many children, and earthly wealth. It’s clear where Esau belongs, except perhaps to some protestants.
#10283 An entire chapter filled with God’s blessings for Esau by name.
May you receive God's blessings. (That is heartfelt, not an insult.)
***The disappointment at your decision to remain is noted.***
The Reformed frothing has increased; your contributions are most welcome.
I was merely repeating what you desired for yourself. Is it a curse or isn't it???
It can't be both. It's one of the other. If the RCC tells you Esau was blessed and rewarded and loved by God, then why are you so upset that I simply repeated what you said when you wrote..
PETRONSKI: An entire chapter filled with God's blessings for Esau by name. Would that you and I could share a verse!"
MARKBSNR: "Filled is right, with generation after generation of descendants. Wealth, riches, saucy wives and uncountable descendants. Sounds like quite a curse."
You guys need to get your story straight.
Yeah, this "heartfelt" desire for God's blessings just leaps off the screen in Dr. E's post:
LOL. Share as much as you desire.
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." -- Romans 9:13"And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." -- Malachi 1:3
Stubborn is as stubborn does. May you receive all that Esau received.
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