Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Jesus would be so proud that the one person He authorized to judge the Catholics around here is being so attentive to her duties. /sarc
For shame.
Amazing to see a “Christian” pronounce on another Christian what she seems to believe is a curse....and to laugh while doing it.
May God forgive her. I do.
I don’t forgive that kind of hatred. I remember it. If some of the protestants on this thread had political power, can anyone doubt they would use it against Catholics? This is insane. Forgiveness from me would be meaningless, let them explain it to God.
I continue to thank God that I am separated by geography and (hopefully) anonymity from the “love” of these people.
If this is what their religion teaches them, then they do worse than they accuse us of doing.
They are still useful. They can serve as a horrible example of a Christian. I don’t know many presybterians who’d admit to sisterhood with that.
The Church's Bible says otherwise, I am rather disinterested what your insufficient, incomplete and heretical translation says.
I’m still curious to see if Dr. E. will respond to my question here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2023605/posts?page=10280#10280
Once again, an insightful, tightly-reasoned, cogent, penetrating reply. Congratulations on the consistency of your effort.
Or this one:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2023605/posts?q=1&;page=10294
Somehow, I doubt it.
Ultimately, there is no difference.
"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." -- Acts 15:18
What God "knows" is what "is," according to His good pleasure in creating all things from before the foundation of the world.
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him." -- Ephesians 3:9-12"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
God is the first cause of all things. Or else He is not God, but merely another bystander.
As reiterated in the WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH...
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3] II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[4] yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[5] ...
I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold,[1] direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,[2] from the greatest even to the least,[3] by His most wise and holy providence,[4] according to His infallible foreknowledge,[5] and the free and immutable counsel of His own will,[6] to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.[7] II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]...
Of God's Eternal Decree
Of Providence
Amazing that answering to God is such an amusing prospect. That rather casts into doubt anything else said about how serious these matters are, so I guess we can disregard the protestants from this point on, nothing serious is being posted.
It sometimes takes some effort to limit my responses to the most charitable, reasonable responses available for
GROSSLY UNBiblical ATTM posts—
ABSURDITIES TO THE MAX
and/or to
GROSSLY UNBiblical HTTM posts—
Hypocrisies To The Max
. . . but I keep working at it.
When there’s nothing indexed to cut and paste, there’s no answer.
False. It's just that you can't distinguish it.
What an amazing NON-answer!
Please try to communicate. It could be important.
Never mind. I’m certain nothing new is happening.
WHAT!?!
You tell me God blessed Esau to such an extent that you desire what God has given him. And yet when I suggest you receive what God gave Esau, you "spit" and accuse me of not being "loving?!?"
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