For discussion.
Brigham Young: The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. On this account infidels have called the Savior a bastard. This is merely a human opinion upon one of the inscrutable doings of the Almighty. That very baby that was cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being. Do you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our heavenly Father. (Journal of Discourses vol. 11, p. 268, 1866)
FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST
By Elder Russell M. Nelson
My long road to become a doctor of medicine was only the beginning. After that came years of hospital work, research, specialty training, and certifying examinations. Then followed many years of teaching, service, and the challenges of the newly emerging field of open-heart surgery, all of which brought me to a profound reverence for the structure and function of the human body. I was convinced that its creation was divine.
The Remarkable Human Body
Think of the genesis of a human body. It begins with the union of two reproductive cells—one from the mother and one from the father. Together, these cells contain all of the new individual’s hereditary information, stored in a space so small it cannot be seen by the naked eye. Twenty-three chromosomes from each parent unite in one new cell. These chromosomes contain thousands of genes which determine the physical characteristics of the unborn person. Approximately 22 days after these cells unite, a tiny heart begins to beat. At 26 days, blood begins to circulate. Cells multiply and divide. Some become eyes that see; others become ears that hear or fingers that feel the wondrous things about us.
Each organ is an amazing creation. The eye has a self-focusing lens. Nerves and muscles allow two eyes to make a single three-dimensional image. The ear converts sound waves into audible tones perceived in the brain.
The heart has four delicate valves that control the direction of blood flow. They open and close more than 100,000 times a day—36 million times a year. Unless altered by disease, they are able to withstand this stress almost indefinitely. No man-made material can be flexed so frequently and so long without breaking. Each day, the adult heart pumps enough fluid to fill a 2,000-gallon (7,570-L) tank. At the crest of the heart is a source of electricity that transmits energy down special lines, causing myriads of muscle fibers to work together.
Think of the body’s backup systems. Each paired organ has instant backup available from the other of the pair. Single organs, such as the brain, the heart, and the liver, are nourished by two routes of blood supply. This protects the organ if blood flow should be impeded through one of those routes.
Think of the body’s capacity to defend itself. To protect it from harm, the body perceives pain. In response to infection, it generates antibodies. They not only help to combat an immediate problem, but they persist to bolster resistance to any future infection.
Think how the body repairs itself. Broken bones mend and become strong again. Skin lacerations heal themselves. A leak in the circulation can seal itself. The body renews its own outdated cells.
The body regulates its own vital ingredients. Levels of essential elements and constituents are adjusted continuously. And regardless of wide fluctuations in temperature of the environment, the temperature of the body is carefully controlled within narrow bounds.
Through years of experience, I have learned that healing occurs only when all of the laws relevant to that blessing are obeyed.1 The structure and function of the body are governed by law. A verse of scripture so states: “Unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.”2
Law and order undergird all creation, whether manifested in the predictability of the tides, the phases of the moon, or the location of stars in the sky. Such order bears witness of a Supreme Creator.
Scientists in many disciplines observe similar manifestations of law and order, whether in the predictability of the tides, the phases of the moon, or the location of stars in the sky. Such law and order undergird all creation. Those laws can be discovered and defined. Their consequences can be measured. Such order bears witness of a Supreme Creator.3
The matter of faith, on the other hand, cannot be measured. But the correlation of faith in God with the law and order of the universe is revealed in scripture:
“[God] hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;
“And their courses are fixed, even the courses of the heavens and the earth, which comprehend the earth and all the planets. …
“Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power.”4
Divinity of the Creation
Scriptures declare that heaven, earth, and all things upon the earth are divinely created.5 Scriptures also help us to know more about the partnership of God and His Son, Jesus Christ, in the Creation. The first words in the Bible state, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,”6 and, “God created man in his own image, … male and female created he them.”7 The book of Abraham teaches that “the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.”8
Scripture records the feelings of Heavenly Father for His Beloved Son and for each human being: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”9
The book of John begins with this declaration:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
“The same was in the beginning with God.
“All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”10
This scripture denotes that the Word11 of God is Jesus Christ—God’s personal minister in the government of this universe and Creator of all life.
This fact was affirmed to Moses by our Heavenly Father, who said:
“And by the word of my power, have I created them [the earth and the individuals on it], which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
“And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.”12
Many other scriptures confirm that, under direction of the Father, Jesus Christ is the Creator.13 One of the most compelling is His own personal testimony: “Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning.”14
Dynamics of Faith in Jesus Christ
For one to accept that concept requires dynamic faith. Faith is the foundation of personal testimony. The first principles of the gospel begin with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.15 Paul said that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”16 He pled “that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend … and to know the love of Christ.”17 Paul entreated us to “come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God.”18
Dynamic faith in the Lord brings conversion, a mighty change of heart, a change of thinking, from the ways of the world to the ways of Deity.
From the Book of Mormon we learn that “we are made alive in Christ because of our faith. … And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.”19
Blessings that flow from faith in Him are also revealed in the Book of Mormon. There we read: “Ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.”20 That is the “greatest of all the gifts of God.”21
Dynamic faith in the Lord leads to complete conversion and a consummate commitment to His holy work. We become children of the covenant; we become His children. Scripture so confirms: “And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.”22
Dynamic faith in the Lord brings conversion, a mighty change of heart,23 a change of thinking, from the ways of the world to the ways of Deity. It causes one to repent with “full purpose of heart.”24 Alma added, “Preach unto them repentance, and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ; teach them to humble themselves and to be meek and lowly in heart; teach them to withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.”25
The Book of Mormon exists, in part, to convince the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal God.26 Those who read the Book of Mormon and ask in faith if the book is true gain a testimony of its truth. They also “come to know … that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world [and] that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days.”27
Faith in Jesus Christ: Essential to Salvation and Exaltation
Faith in Jesus Christ not only brings blessings in this life, but it is essential to our eternal salvation and exaltation. Scripture declares, “All men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.”28 The Lord also holds parents responsible to teach their children to have “faith in Christ the Son of the living God.”29
I testify that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He is our Creator, Savior and Redeemer,30 Advocate with the Father,31 Deliverer,32 and Jehovah of the Old Testament.33 He is the promised Immanuel,34 the anointed Messiah,35 and our great Exemplar.36 One day He will return to rule and reign as King of kings and Lord of lords.37 Eventually, we will each stand before Him at judgment day.38 I pray for each of us that our individual faith in Him will be acceptable.
That very concept was established by the Lord when He said, “When we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:21).
D&C 88:38.
See Alma 30:44.
D&C 88:42–43, 47.
See Colossians 1:16; Mosiah 4:2, 9; 5:15; Alma 18:28; 22:10; Moses 3:5.
Genesis 1:1.
Genesis 1:27.
Abraham 4:27.
John 3:16.
John 1:1–3.
In Greek, Logos (meaning “word”) is another name for Christ.
Moses 1:32–33; emphasis added.
See Ephesians 3:9; Mosiah 3:8–11; Helaman 14:12; Mormon 9:8–14.
3 Nephi 9:15. The Lord further declared, “Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, who created the heavens and the earth, a light which cannot be hid in darkness” (D&C 14:9).
See Articles of Faith 1:4.
Hebrews 11:1.
Ephesians 3:17–19.
Ephesians 4:11–13; see also Galatians 3:26–29.
2 Nephi 25:25–26.
2 Nephi 31:20; see also Enos 1:8; Mosiah 3:12.
D&C 14:7.
Mosiah 5:7.
See Alma 5:12–14.
2 Nephi 31:13; see also Jacob 6:5; Mosiah 7:33; 3 Nephi 10:6; 12:24; 18:32.
Alma 37:33; see also Mormon 9:37; Moroni 7:25–26, 33–34, 38–39.
See Book of Mormon title page.
Book of Mormon introduction.
D&C 20:29.
D&C 68:25; see also Moses 6:57–62.
See Isaiah 49:26; 60:16; 1 Nephi 21:26; 2 Nephi 6:18.
See D&C 29:5; 110:4.
See 2 Samuel 22:2; D&C 138:23.
See D&C 110:3.
See Isaiah 7:14.
See 2 Nephi 25:14–19.
See John 13:15; 3 Nephi 27:21.
See Revelation 17:14; 19:16.
See Revelation 20:12; 1 Nephi 15:33; 2 Nephi 9:22, 44; 28:23; Alma 5:15; 3 Nephi 27:14; Mormon 3:20; 9:8–14.
THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO
ST JOHN
CHAPTER 14
Jesus speaks of many mansions; says he is the way, the truth, and the life; that to see him is to see the Father—He promises the first and second Comforters.
1 Let not your heart be atroubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s ahouse are many bmansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will acome again, and receive you unto myself; that bwhere cI am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the away, the btruth, and the life: no man ccometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had aknown me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the aFather; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the aFather, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am ain the bFather, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that abelieveth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I bgo unto my cFather.
13 And whatsoever ye shall aask in my bname, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 ¶ If ye alove me, bkeep my ccommandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another aComforter, that he may babide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you acomfortless: I will bcome to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and akeepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be bloved of my Father, and I will love him, and will cmanifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will alove him, and we will come unto him, and make our babode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the aComforter, which is the bHoly Ghost, whom the Father will send in my cname, he shall dteach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 aPeace I leave with you, my bpeace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be ctroubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I ago unto the Father: for my bFather is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might abelieve.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: afor the bprince of this cworld cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me acommandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
3 And this is alife beternal, that they might cknow thee the only true dGod, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast esent.
4 I have aglorified thee on the earth: I have bfinished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
If Joseph Smith has such credibility then why did fraudulently claim be able to translate Egyptian Papri Hieroglyphics when he clearly could not? Proof is here:
The Book of Abraham Papyri and Joseph Smith http://www.carm.org/lds/ldspapyri.htm
Thanks you for this thread.
In all fairness, Marlowe, I’m not sure Mormons know there is a difference between their god and our God. Perhaps all they know is what they have been taught.
It took me years and years to understand the unlimitedness, the vastenss and awesome nature of our God. This man-made-god of Mormonism and his procreated son don’t hold a candle.
This is wackier than the Hollow Earth Theory!
God himself, was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!...it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)
bflr = bump for later reading
“JESUS ACHIEVED GODHOOD”
Hard to paint that belief as anything other than a heresy from a Catholic or Protestant perspective. In any case it clearly demonstrates that there is no common ground to be had.