The Great Heresies [Open]

Catholic.com ^

[CharlesWayneCT]

I was refering to comments made in the thread yesterday, not official church doctrinal teachings. Mine is a summary of what i took from those comments, which I do not pretend represent the official church position.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Yes, I’m a dad, and I often come up with clever “teaching moments” which invariably lead to the equivalent of me having to pick up all the boards and put them away.

:-)

[thefrankbaum]

First of all, "church teachings" are not just some obscure popified dictation that's occurred in some remote room or remote portion of history. "Church teachings" are either circulated into the mainstream of the church by its leaders & hiearchy, or they are not. (And if they are not, then it's not just a "membership" issue of failing to follow that you try to pass it off on )

I'm not going to argue that the Church has done a great job being forceful and clear with its teachings - I don't think it has. However, your post was "If there's no diversity of Catholic doctrines in the church" - I was just demonstrating no diversity of doctrines in the Church. There isn't, regardless of how much we fail in following the doctrines.

So, you're telling me, then, that if I selected the half-dozen closest Catholic schools to where I live, that if I investigated the school curricula, I would find all of these things:

...teachings of the worship of Mary?

I can't imagine you'll find anyone teaching the worship of Mary, since that isn't a teaching of the Church.

...teaching of prayer to deceased people?

Deceased people? No way! To people that have fallen alseep in Christ, and are fully alive in Him? Then, definitely, I pray to a variety of Saints every day, asking them to keep me in their prayers to God.

...active veneration of holy relics?

You should find veneration of Relics, since things which had touched St. Paul brought Miracles, wrought through the Hand of God. Acts 19:12.

Or if I was to review the Catholic church curricula & sermons for the past year of six Catholic churches closest to where I live, I would find evidence of:

...live, active teachings to married women NOT to use birth control?

I would hope so - Homilies if is germaine to the Scripture of the Liturgy, otherwise in the flyers or groups meeting at the Church. Although if your Priest doesn't think it is a problem within his flock, then maybe not.

...20th century Mary European revelations?

I'm sorry - I don't follow. You'll have to be more specific.

[Between the Lines]

I don't read the religion threads (I decided to wander in a bit just to see what it is like, and I think I'm going to stop soon)

I would like to encourage you to stay in the FReligion forum longer. Though I do not always agree with what you post, your posts have brought a much needed breath of fresh air to many of the threads you have visited.

Please reconsider.

BTL

[netmilsmom]

>>Yes, I’m a dad, and I often come up with clever “teaching moments” which invariably lead to the equivalent of me having to pick up all the boards and put them away.<<

I do that too!
And shake my head. But not as back as the day I thought it wouldn’t be a bad idea to let my girls take all the packing popcorn out of a BIG box and play with it outside.

Three, maybe four hours to clean it up! Geez. Sometimes I know I’m Polish.

[NYer]

These very same verses this article uses to argue against iconoclasm are the same ones our church uses to explain why we do not use statues or images in our church.

Do you have a family photograph on a mantel at home or on your desk at work?

[Between the Lines]

Yes, but Jesus wasn’t available that day so he is missing from the picture.

[Gamecock]

No motives attributed. It read pretty straight forward to me.

[annalex]

I thought it was a Protestant position that going to hell is the default condition of man.

This is a fuller explanation: Link

As you can see, the picture could be worse for Catholics. Of those whom much was given, much will be required. When a Protestant separates himself from the Church he often has the excuse that he was raised Protestant. It is often a valid excuse, especially if one never learned Catholicism other than from his anti-Catholic pastor. On the other hand, when a Catholic violates the disciplines of his Church such as regular Mass attendance, indissolvability of marriage, sinfulness of contraception, obligation to evangelize others -- he cannot say that he did not know better.

[annalex]

This is all so confusing!

I'd be glad to help: heretic is by definition Christian. Yes, some Christians are going to hell. Participation in heresies is not a good idea if salvation is the goal.

[free_life]

Hersey are beliefs that come from man and or the devil not the Holy Spirit Who gives us the Truth. When I hear a religion that claims to teach Christ and His salvation yet adds something like purgatory to the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross I am concerned for those that follow such dark lies.

Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit in us here after being born again not in some place that is neither named or even described in any way in the word of God. Jesus never taught it because it does not exist. It came about because a lot of money could be had be those who feared hell.

To accept that the Roman Catholic Church has any part in Jesus Christ’s church it would have start with the clear evidence they follow His Word. There are catholics that are saved but far to many only hope they are saved....and that is the words out of their own mouths. Faith in Christ and His finished work of salvation is not optional.

[Gamecock]

Nope.

All Christians will be in Heaven. Reprobates will be in Hell. And yes, there are reprobates in God’s visible church.

[annalex]

All Christians will be in Heaven. Reprobates will be in Hell.

This is classic speaking past one another. What you say is Protestant theology: a Christian is one who has been saved by a profession of faith, which means he is among the elect.

In Catholic theology, a Christian is one who has been baptised and did not commit an apostasy (e.g. became atheist or Muslim). At the end of everyone's life Christ judges him for his works and he either will be saved and go to heaven as one of the elect, or he will go to hell.

The judgement is based on the state of the soul at the point of death. A Christian who also obeyed the Church and repented of sin dies in the state of sanctifying grace and is saved. A Christian who dies burdened by sin and unreconciled is condemned. A non-Christian has no ordinary means of grace as he does not go to Church, and any such that are saved at all, are saved as an extraordinary expression of Christ's mercy.

This probably did not convince you to become Catholic, but it should help you understand what these words mean coming from a Catholic. In my experience, 90% of daily ecumenical bickering between Protestants and Catholics is simple lack of familiarity with the other side's terminology.

[annalex]

As promised, this is the Catholic Theology for non-Catholics series. I am reusing my Easter Celebration ping list. However, it will be treated as a separate list in the future.

If you want to be on the Catholic Theology for non-Catholics list but are not on it already, or if you are on it but do not want to be, let me know either publicly or privately.

Sorry for the double pings, if any.

[tiki]

I think he’s referring to Fatima and Lourdes.

[tiki]

I did that with my granddaughter, only I didn’t go outside. My husband was disgusted but we had fun! It took a while to clean up.

[Colofornian]

You should find veneration of Relics, since things which had touched St. Paul brought Miracles, wrought through the Hand of God. Acts 19:12.

Under that definition, since people are made by our Creator-God, then everybody is a “miracle” who arrive by God opening the womb of a woman, and therefore we are all “relics,” eh? (No, I don’t see any “relics” in the Bible the way Catholics define them)

But let’s just say, for argument, that relics were “acceptable” and all that mattered is that the relic was “authentic” vs. “junk.” According to this catholic.com response which argues for accepting relics, a concession is made: The Church has never pronounced that any particular relic—even that of the cross—is genuine. But, the Church does approve of honor being given to the relics that can with reasonable probability be considered authentic. http://www.catholic.com/library/Relics.asp

If the church cannot authoritatively say such a relic is indeed “genuine,” why bother?

Me: ...20th century Mary European revelations?

You: I'm sorry - I don't follow. You'll have to be more specific.

Our Lady of Fatima and the supposed “secrets” given as revelations.

I can't imagine you'll find anyone teaching the worship of Mary, since that isn't a teaching of the Church.

Then what’s it doing in the Catholic catechism? "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." (footnote is Paul VI, MC 56) http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#II

Also, the comment below was posted at: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=88719

The painting in Warsaw and the crucifix in Rome depict Rome's dogma that Mary is the co-redemptress with Christ, that she intercedes for men from heaven and aids in their salvation. Note the following quotations from the Vatican II. “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but BY HER MANIFOLD INTERCESSION CONTINUES TO BRING US THE GIFTS OF ETERNAL SALVATION. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of ADVOCATE, HELPER, BENEFACTRESS, and MEDIATRIX" (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383). A plaque in the Chapel of the Virgin of the Grace at Saints Vincent and Anastasius Church in Rome says, "Cardinal Benedetto Odescalchi, who became the pope with the name of Innocent XI, initiated THE WORSHIP OF THE IMAGE, placed on the altar in 1677, and wanted his heart to be buried here, not in the main chapel." This is only one example of many that could be given of the term "worship" used in regard to Mary in Rome's churches.

Deceased people? No way! To people that have fallen alseep in Christ, and are fully alive in Him? Then, definitely, I pray to a variety of Saints every day, asking them to keep me in their prayers to God.

Well, I’m not the only one who “frames” it in a similar manner. Note this Catholic commenting on the same forums.catholic.com: Catholics believe that they can ask deceased Christians, particularly those known to be in heaven, for their intercession with God. Because of her unique relationship with Christ and because of her.

re: diversity of doctrinal teaching…I decided to check Catholic curricula online and didn’t progress too far. But here’s the first site I checked… Saskatchewan Catholic Curriculum…

I looked at their “prayer and celebrations” sections.

Sure enough, there was an example of teaching praying to saints:

God, Creator and source of all holiness, the work of your hands is manifested in your saints, the beauty of Your truth is reflected in their faith…All you saints in heaven, teach us to live for God and others. Intercede for us that we may show courage to live our lives as you have. Amen…Leader: Together let us pray the “Our Father” for the communion of saints. …All you saints of heaven, teach us to live for God and others. Speak to God for us that we might have the kind of courage you showed in your lives. We ask this in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. http://wblrd.sk.ca/~cco/new_site/celebrations/litsaints.html

So that would be an argument in your favor about consistency. Still, at: http://wblrd.sk.ca/~cco/new_site/celebrations/prayers.html , I could find earth day prayer, prayer for christian unity, prayer for peace…but no prayer to Mary. Under its celebration section, same thing…http://wblrd.sk.ca/~cco/new_site/celebrations/celebrations.html I can find a reconciliation prayer service, a Holy Spirit celebration, a “Prayer Service: Listening to God” a reenactment of the Last Supper, a prayer to saints, but no prayer to Mary.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

When a Protestant separates himself from the Church

If, by "Church" you mean the Vatican magisterium, then when a man separates himself from that misguided institution and becomes a Protestant, the heavens rejoice.

It is often a valid excuse, especially if one never learned Catholicism other than from his anti-Catholic pastor.

I learned most of what I know about Catholicism from ex-Catholics and even current Catholics.

From those discussions with Catholics on FR I've learned to recognize and rebuke rebuke the manifold errors of Rome such as viewing Mary as a "co-redeemer;" believing priests are "another Christ;" thinking relics and statues of dead people have any place in the Christian life; putting Scripture on the same (and often lesser) level than tradition; and buying into the wholesale mysticism and alchemy that is the errant Lord's Supper as interpreted incorrectly by the RCC.

I do agree with you, however, that "of those whom much is given, must will be required."

Therefore, considering the bounty men have in the Holy Scriptures and the indwelling Holy Spirit, we Protestants are required to preach the Gospel in truth which thankfully, illustrates the many transgressions of Rome and its false bishop.

[thefrankbaum]

Under that definition, since people are made by our Creator-God, then everybody is a “miracle” who arrive by God opening the womb of a woman, and therefore we are all “relics,” eh? (No, I don’t see any “relics” in the Bible the way Catholics define them)

Are you as Holy as St. Paul? Now, I don't know you from Adam, so you may very well be, but I know I'm not, and I highly doubt anyone will be after my relics. Did you check Acts 19? "So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them." I don't see the jump you make to everyone being a miracle - Scripture speaks for itself here.

If the church cannot authoritatively say such a relic is indeed “genuine,” why bother?

Because they can help bring people closer to God - the same reason we bless physical things. Humans are not mere spirits, we are physical creatures as well, and concrete things help us focus on God.

Our Lady of Fatima and the supposed “secrets” given as revelations.

Okay, gotcha. First, no one is required to believe in any particular Marian appearance. They are private revelations, and do not hold the same rank as Scripture or Tradition. However, I think if you look at the messages of any of the RECOGNIZED (cannot stress that enough) apparitions, you will find they all point to Christ. As such, I don't see a problem teaching or discussing them.

Then what’s it doing in the Catholic catechism? "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." (footnote is Paul VI, MC 56) http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#II

Devotion is intrinsic to worship - they are not one and the same. Worship is for God alone. Also from Mirialis Cultus, "This devotion takes into account the part she played at decisive moments in the history of the salvation which her Son accomplished, and her holiness, already full at her Immaculate Conception yet increasing all the time as she obeyed the will of the Father and accepted the path of suffering (cf. Lk. 2:34-35, 41-52; Jn. 19:25-27), growing constantly in faith, hope and charity." We are devoted because she demonstrates the greatest example of following God's Will - Christ was divine, and we can not be Him, but Mary was a true daughter of Eve - our human nature is reflected in her. She shows us how to say "yes" to God, whatever He says.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=88719 - I see only two posts when I check this link, a question regarding "Mary worship" and an answer. There are some issues in that post (which doesn't appear at the link), so if you could double-check where you got it from, I'd like to read the whole thread and make sense of it. However, the BVM continually aids in my salvation (I hope) by praying for me to God.

Well, I’m not the only one who “frames” it in a similar manner. Note this Catholic commenting on the same forums.catholic.com: Catholics believe that they can ask deceased Christians, particularly those known to be in heaven, for their intercession with God. Because of her unique relationship with Christ and because of her.

Okay - you notice the poster states "those known to be in heaven." If someone is heaven, they are not deceased - maybe semantics, but a difference, IMHO.

Sure enough, there was an example of teaching praying to saints

Notice the actual request of the prayer to the saints: "Speak to God for us that we might have the kind of courage you showed in your lives." I would ask you to do the same for me - I dunno if you're especially courageous, but I ask that you keep me in your prayers. Again, like I said above, Christians who "die" become more fully alive than any of us. Since the Saints are in Heaven, and we know Heaven can hear us (see, the Psalmist commanding Angels) we can ask the saints to pray for us.

If you want prayers to Mary, it is probably not on that site for the same reason the Our Father isn't - the Hail Mary is committed to memory pretty darn early. Its something most Catholics just know.

[HarleyD]

The great diversity of Protestant doctrines stems from the doctrine of private judgment, which denies the infallible authority of the Church and claims that each individual is to interpret Scripture for himself. This idea is rejected in 2 Peter 1:20, where we are told the first rule of Bible interpretation: "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation."

What a hoot to use this verse as an argument for Church authority. The author should post the context.

2Pe 1:19 We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts,
2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.
2Pe 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their pernicious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be evil spoken of.
...
2Pe 3:1 Beloved, I now write this second letter to you, in which I stir up your pure mind by reminder
2Pe 3:2 to remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of the Lord and Savior by us, the apostles.

The whole context of 2 Peter is the word of God. The only way a person can know false prophets and false teachers, according to Peter, is through the words which were spoken by 1) the prophets, 2) the Lord, and 3) the apostles. The "interpretation" does not rest in some group of peoples trying to figure it out. The Old Testament has been interpreted for us (to a point). It's a bit disingenuous for the author to claim verse 1:20 talks about the authority of the Church when the whole book of 2 Peter is about the authority of the word.