Are you as Holy as St. Paul? Now, I don't know you from Adam, so you may very well be, but I know I'm not, and I highly doubt anyone will be after my relics. Did you check Acts 19? "So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them." I don't see the jump you make to everyone being a miracle - Scripture speaks for itself here.
If the church cannot authoritatively say such a relic is indeed “genuine,” why bother?
Because they can help bring people closer to God - the same reason we bless physical things. Humans are not mere spirits, we are physical creatures as well, and concrete things help us focus on God.
Our Lady of Fatima and the supposed “secrets” given as revelations.
Okay, gotcha. First, no one is required to believe in any particular Marian appearance. They are private revelations, and do not hold the same rank as Scripture or Tradition. However, I think if you look at the messages of any of the RECOGNIZED (cannot stress that enough) apparitions, you will find they all point to Christ. As such, I don't see a problem teaching or discussing them.
Then what’s it doing in the Catholic catechism? "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." (footnote is Paul VI, MC 56) http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#II
Devotion is intrinsic to worship - they are not one and the same. Worship is for God alone. Also from Mirialis Cultus, "This devotion takes into account the part she played at decisive moments in the history of the salvation which her Son accomplished, and her holiness, already full at her Immaculate Conception yet increasing all the time as she obeyed the will of the Father and accepted the path of suffering (cf. Lk. 2:34-35, 41-52; Jn. 19:25-27), growing constantly in faith, hope and charity." We are devoted because she demonstrates the greatest example of following God's Will - Christ was divine, and we can not be Him, but Mary was a true daughter of Eve - our human nature is reflected in her. She shows us how to say "yes" to God, whatever He says.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=88719 - I see only two posts when I check this link, a question regarding "Mary worship" and an answer. There are some issues in that post (which doesn't appear at the link), so if you could double-check where you got it from, I'd like to read the whole thread and make sense of it. However, the BVM continually aids in my salvation (I hope) by praying for me to God.
Well, I’m not the only one who “frames” it in a similar manner. Note this Catholic commenting on the same forums.catholic.com: Catholics believe that they can ask deceased Christians, particularly those known to be in heaven, for their intercession with God. Because of her unique relationship with Christ and because of her.
Okay - you notice the poster states "those known to be in heaven." If someone is heaven, they are not deceased - maybe semantics, but a difference, IMHO.
Sure enough, there was an example of teaching praying to saints
Notice the actual request of the prayer to the saints: "Speak to God for us that we might have the kind of courage you showed in your lives." I would ask you to do the same for me - I dunno if you're especially courageous, but I ask that you keep me in your prayers. Again, like I said above, Christians who "die" become more fully alive than any of us. Since the Saints are in Heaven, and we know Heaven can hear us (see, the Psalmist commanding Angels) we can ask the saints to pray for us.
If you want prayers to Mary, it is probably not on that site for the same reason the Our Father isn't - the Hail Mary is committed to memory pretty darn early. Its something most Catholics just know.
Again, I'll reiterate the point that even Catholic apologists agree to...that unlike your Acts 19 reference where actual face cloths or aprons that touched Paul's skin were relished, no one can guarantee that the relics in question are indeed even qualifiable as such.
Interesting coffee table discussion pieces? (Yes)
Potential shelf-liners for museums? (Yes)
Integrated decor for historical churches? (Yes)
Tourist fodder to keep the turnstyles goin'? (Yes)
But perhaps nothing more but junk relics? (Even you & other Catholic apologists have to say "Yes" to that, too)
I don't see the jump you make to everyone being a miracle - Scripture speaks for itself here.
My point is healing--what we might call "re-creation" can be miraculous, right? Well, "creation" is likewise miraculous. So just as the Acts 19 items could be deemed "relics;" well, so could my dead body.
Or let's say I had a miraculous healing of my arm...does that mean that when I die, folks should cut it off & haul it around Catholic churches as a real God-touched "relic?"...You see there's no consistency...At least a doctor could provide a "Note of Authenticity" that I was indeed miraculously or unexplainably healed...unlike such "notes of authenticity" RE: most Catholic relics
I see only two posts when I check this link, a question regarding "Mary worship" and an answer. There are some issues in that post (which doesn't appear at the link), so if you could double-check where you got it from, I'd like to read the whole thread and make sense of it.
Sorry, wrong URL (but right Web site...it was a triplet of three Q&As) http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=187504
First, no one is required to believe in any particular Marian appearance. They are private revelations, and do not hold the same rank as Scripture or Tradition. However, I think if you look at the messages of any of the RECOGNIZED (cannot stress that enough) apparitions, you will find they all point to Christ. As such, I don't see a problem teaching or discussing them.
OK, this is what I was afraid would start happening in our dialogue--that the discussion would move into the general discussion arena of the point I was making instead of staying on the relevance of why I even went in this direction. Let's get back to my original point, which was, that some Catholics teach the doctrine of Marian apparitions, and some leaders don't.
With the way you answered above, you actually confirmed my original point! Look again at how you answered, and I'll comment this time point by point: First, no one is required to believe in any particular Marian appearance.
First of all, if this is a true authoritative Catholic teaching, ya wanna tell me how many other authoritative Catholic teachings can be embraced take-it-or-leave-it cafeteria style like this teaching?
If it's not a standard authoritative Catholic teaching--which seems to be what you say when you said: They are private revelations, and do not hold the same rank as Scripture or Tradition...As such, I don't see a problem teaching or discussing them. ... THEN my point is made! Then as I said, since this is not a Scriptural-based Catholic teaching or doctrine, nor is it a tradition-based Catholic teaching or doctrine, but as you say, some folks still teach it, then why would it surprise you that some Catholics hold to this Catholic teaching as doctrine?...(because they're taught it) and others don't? (because they don't see it as either Scriptural or tradition-based)
Finally, I said: Then what’s it doing in the Catholic catechism? "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." (footnote is Paul VI, MC 56) http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#II
And you responded: Devotion is intrinsic to worship - they are not one and the same. Worship is for God alone. Also from Mirialis Cultus, "This devotion takes into account the part she played at decisive moments in the history of the salvation... (etc.)
Once again, you've moved away from my original point.
Let's say I am an adult or teen catecuman [spelling?] in the Catholic church. I come across the above reference, and I say, "Oh, my worship is 'intrinsified' [not sure if it's a word] via my devotion to the Blessed Virgin." I quickly scan the reference for some reference to God or Jesus Christ as the object of worship (as you switched gears to), but can't find it. Oh sure, upon further search, I find worshipping God and Christ elsewhere in the catechism...but seeing the concept "devoted...worship...to the Blessed Virgin" would clearly lift this mortal object into the worship category "hall of fame," I begin my genesis of worshipping Mary, being devoted to Mary, honoring Mary, and when folks compare this to how I treat Jesus...no real distinction can be made!
So...my point? Folks who read the references in the Catholic catechism and elsewhere believe they are being taught to worship Mary, and do so, and why wouldn't they if the word "worship" is attached to her in multiple places & she is prayed to all the time?
But do such Catholics represent Catholicism in its entirety? (No way). All you have to do is do a google search on "worshipping Mary" or Mariology or similar searches and it's crammed with Catholics doing cartwheels to explain, "We don't worship Mary. We honor her. We are devoted to her. She is our intercessor, etc. etc. etc." And some of these are prominent Catholic priests, leaders, authors & apologists! Now do I discount what they say? (No) If they say they don't worship Mary, I'll take their word for it.
But if I come back to them & say, "You know, Catholic teaching does teach about worshipping Mary...even if you and others interpret that differently, it's still there."
So don't you see? It's frankly at the very least unclear to Catholic grassroots & Catholic leaders. Based on the teachings they've heard/seen, worshipping & praying to Mary is A-OK. Based on the teachings other Catholics have heard/seen, well "worship" in the contemporary sense goes too far.
But my point is made. You've got two camps. And the reason behind the "two camps" can't be laid at the feet of the followers. (It's because the leaders & teachers haven't clarified it one way or the other...and both sides are elaborated).