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To: Colofornian
First of all, "church teachings" are not just some obscure popified dictation that's occurred in some remote room or remote portion of history. "Church teachings" are either circulated into the mainstream of the church by its leaders & hiearchy, or they are not. (And if they are not, then it's not just a "membership" issue of failing to follow that you try to pass it off on )

I'm not going to argue that the Church has done a great job being forceful and clear with its teachings - I don't think it has. However, your post was "If there's no diversity of Catholic doctrines in the church" - I was just demonstrating no diversity of doctrines in the Church. There isn't, regardless of how much we fail in following the doctrines.

So, you're telling me, then, that if I selected the half-dozen closest Catholic schools to where I live, that if I investigated the school curricula, I would find all of these things:

...teachings of the worship of Mary?

I can't imagine you'll find anyone teaching the worship of Mary, since that isn't a teaching of the Church.

...teaching of prayer to deceased people?

Deceased people? No way! To people that have fallen alseep in Christ, and are fully alive in Him? Then, definitely, I pray to a variety of Saints every day, asking them to keep me in their prayers to God.

...active veneration of holy relics?

You should find veneration of Relics, since things which had touched St. Paul brought Miracles, wrought through the Hand of God. Acts 19:12.

Or if I was to review the Catholic church curricula & sermons for the past year of six Catholic churches closest to where I live, I would find evidence of:

...live, active teachings to married women NOT to use birth control?

I would hope so - Homilies if is germaine to the Scripture of the Liturgy, otherwise in the flyers or groups meeting at the Church. Although if your Priest doesn't think it is a problem within his flock, then maybe not.

...20th century Mary European revelations?

I'm sorry - I don't follow. You'll have to be more specific.

103 posted on 05/20/2008 11:23:34 AM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: thefrankbaum

I think he’s referring to Fatima and Lourdes.


115 posted on 05/20/2008 3:10:54 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: thefrankbaum
You should find veneration of Relics, since things which had touched St. Paul brought Miracles, wrought through the Hand of God. Acts 19:12.

Under that definition, since people are made by our Creator-God, then everybody is a “miracle” who arrive by God opening the womb of a woman, and therefore we are all “relics,” eh? (No, I don’t see any “relics” in the Bible the way Catholics define them)

But let’s just say, for argument, that relics were “acceptable” and all that mattered is that the relic was “authentic” vs. “junk.” According to this catholic.com response which argues for accepting relics, a concession is made: The Church has never pronounced that any particular relic—even that of the cross—is genuine. But, the Church does approve of honor being given to the relics that can with reasonable probability be considered authentic. http://www.catholic.com/library/Relics.asp

If the church cannot authoritatively say such a relic is indeed “genuine,” why bother?

Me: ...20th century Mary European revelations?

You: I'm sorry - I don't follow. You'll have to be more specific.

Our Lady of Fatima and the supposed “secrets” given as revelations.

I can't imagine you'll find anyone teaching the worship of Mary, since that isn't a teaching of the Church.

Then what’s it doing in the Catholic catechism? "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." (footnote is Paul VI, MC 56) http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#II

Also, the comment below was posted at: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=88719

The painting in Warsaw and the crucifix in Rome depict Rome's dogma that Mary is the co-redemptress with Christ, that she intercedes for men from heaven and aids in their salvation. Note the following quotations from the Vatican II. “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but BY HER MANIFOLD INTERCESSION CONTINUES TO BRING US THE GIFTS OF ETERNAL SALVATION. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of ADVOCATE, HELPER, BENEFACTRESS, and MEDIATRIX" (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383). A plaque in the Chapel of the Virgin of the Grace at Saints Vincent and Anastasius Church in Rome says, "Cardinal Benedetto Odescalchi, who became the pope with the name of Innocent XI, initiated THE WORSHIP OF THE IMAGE, placed on the altar in 1677, and wanted his heart to be buried here, not in the main chapel." This is only one example of many that could be given of the term "worship" used in regard to Mary in Rome's churches.

Deceased people? No way! To people that have fallen alseep in Christ, and are fully alive in Him? Then, definitely, I pray to a variety of Saints every day, asking them to keep me in their prayers to God.

Well, I’m not the only one who “frames” it in a similar manner. Note this Catholic commenting on the same forums.catholic.com: Catholics believe that they can ask deceased Christians, particularly those known to be in heaven, for their intercession with God. Because of her unique relationship with Christ and because of her.

re: diversity of doctrinal teaching…I decided to check Catholic curricula online and didn’t progress too far. But here’s the first site I checked… Saskatchewan Catholic Curriculum…

I looked at their “prayer and celebrations” sections.

Sure enough, there was an example of teaching praying to saints:

God, Creator and source of all holiness, the work of your hands is manifested in your saints, the beauty of Your truth is reflected in their faith…All you saints in heaven, teach us to live for God and others. Intercede for us that we may show courage to live our lives as you have. Amen…Leader: Together let us pray the “Our Father” for the communion of saints. …All you saints of heaven, teach us to live for God and others. Speak to God for us that we might have the kind of courage you showed in your lives. We ask this in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. http://wblrd.sk.ca/~cco/new_site/celebrations/litsaints.html

So that would be an argument in your favor about consistency. Still, at: http://wblrd.sk.ca/~cco/new_site/celebrations/prayers.html , I could find earth day prayer, prayer for christian unity, prayer for peace…but no prayer to Mary. Under its celebration section, same thing…http://wblrd.sk.ca/~cco/new_site/celebrations/celebrations.html I can find a reconciliation prayer service, a Holy Spirit celebration, a “Prayer Service: Listening to God” a reenactment of the Last Supper, a prayer to saints, but no prayer to Mary.

117 posted on 05/20/2008 3:34:40 PM PDT by Colofornian
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