Under that definition, since people are made by our Creator-God, then everybody is a “miracle” who arrive by God opening the womb of a woman, and therefore we are all “relics,” eh? (No, I don’t see any “relics” in the Bible the way Catholics define them)
But let’s just say, for argument, that relics were “acceptable” and all that mattered is that the relic was “authentic” vs. “junk.” According to this catholic.com response which argues for accepting relics, a concession is made: The Church has never pronounced that any particular relic—even that of the cross—is genuine. But, the Church does approve of honor being given to the relics that can with reasonable probability be considered authentic. http://www.catholic.com/library/Relics.asp
If the church cannot authoritatively say such a relic is indeed “genuine,” why bother?
Me: ...20th century Mary European revelations?
You: I'm sorry - I don't follow. You'll have to be more specific.
Our Lady of Fatima and the supposed “secrets” given as revelations.
I can't imagine you'll find anyone teaching the worship of Mary, since that isn't a teaching of the Church.
Then what’s it doing in the Catholic catechism? "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." (footnote is Paul VI, MC 56) http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#II
Also, the comment below was posted at: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=88719
The painting in Warsaw and the crucifix in Rome depict Rome's dogma that Mary is the co-redemptress with Christ, that she intercedes for men from heaven and aids in their salvation. Note the following quotations from the Vatican II. “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but BY HER MANIFOLD INTERCESSION CONTINUES TO BRING US THE GIFTS OF ETERNAL SALVATION. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of ADVOCATE, HELPER, BENEFACTRESS, and MEDIATRIX" (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383). A plaque in the Chapel of the Virgin of the Grace at Saints Vincent and Anastasius Church in Rome says, "Cardinal Benedetto Odescalchi, who became the pope with the name of Innocent XI, initiated THE WORSHIP OF THE IMAGE, placed on the altar in 1677, and wanted his heart to be buried here, not in the main chapel." This is only one example of many that could be given of the term "worship" used in regard to Mary in Rome's churches.
Deceased people? No way! To people that have fallen alseep in Christ, and are fully alive in Him? Then, definitely, I pray to a variety of Saints every day, asking them to keep me in their prayers to God.
Well, I’m not the only one who “frames” it in a similar manner. Note this Catholic commenting on the same forums.catholic.com: Catholics believe that they can ask deceased Christians, particularly those known to be in heaven, for their intercession with God. Because of her unique relationship with Christ and because of her.
re: diversity of doctrinal teaching…I decided to check Catholic curricula online and didn’t progress too far. But here’s the first site I checked… Saskatchewan Catholic Curriculum…
I looked at their “prayer and celebrations” sections.
Sure enough, there was an example of teaching praying to saints:
God, Creator and source of all holiness, the work of your hands is manifested in your saints, the beauty of Your truth is reflected in their faith…All you saints in heaven, teach us to live for God and others. Intercede for us that we may show courage to live our lives as you have. Amen…Leader: Together let us pray the “Our Father” for the communion of saints. …All you saints of heaven, teach us to live for God and others. Speak to God for us that we might have the kind of courage you showed in your lives. We ask this in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. http://wblrd.sk.ca/~cco/new_site/celebrations/litsaints.html
So that would be an argument in your favor about consistency. Still, at: http://wblrd.sk.ca/~cco/new_site/celebrations/prayers.html , I could find earth day prayer, prayer for christian unity, prayer for peace…but no prayer to Mary. Under its celebration section, same thing…http://wblrd.sk.ca/~cco/new_site/celebrations/celebrations.html I can find a reconciliation prayer service, a Holy Spirit celebration, a “Prayer Service: Listening to God” a reenactment of the Last Supper, a prayer to saints, but no prayer to Mary.
Are you as Holy as St. Paul? Now, I don't know you from Adam, so you may very well be, but I know I'm not, and I highly doubt anyone will be after my relics. Did you check Acts 19? "So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them." I don't see the jump you make to everyone being a miracle - Scripture speaks for itself here.
If the church cannot authoritatively say such a relic is indeed “genuine,” why bother?
Because they can help bring people closer to God - the same reason we bless physical things. Humans are not mere spirits, we are physical creatures as well, and concrete things help us focus on God.
Our Lady of Fatima and the supposed “secrets” given as revelations.
Okay, gotcha. First, no one is required to believe in any particular Marian appearance. They are private revelations, and do not hold the same rank as Scripture or Tradition. However, I think if you look at the messages of any of the RECOGNIZED (cannot stress that enough) apparitions, you will find they all point to Christ. As such, I don't see a problem teaching or discussing them.
Then what’s it doing in the Catholic catechism? "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." (footnote is Paul VI, MC 56) http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#II
Devotion is intrinsic to worship - they are not one and the same. Worship is for God alone. Also from Mirialis Cultus, "This devotion takes into account the part she played at decisive moments in the history of the salvation which her Son accomplished, and her holiness, already full at her Immaculate Conception yet increasing all the time as she obeyed the will of the Father and accepted the path of suffering (cf. Lk. 2:34-35, 41-52; Jn. 19:25-27), growing constantly in faith, hope and charity." We are devoted because she demonstrates the greatest example of following God's Will - Christ was divine, and we can not be Him, but Mary was a true daughter of Eve - our human nature is reflected in her. She shows us how to say "yes" to God, whatever He says.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=88719 - I see only two posts when I check this link, a question regarding "Mary worship" and an answer. There are some issues in that post (which doesn't appear at the link), so if you could double-check where you got it from, I'd like to read the whole thread and make sense of it. However, the BVM continually aids in my salvation (I hope) by praying for me to God.
Well, I’m not the only one who “frames” it in a similar manner. Note this Catholic commenting on the same forums.catholic.com: Catholics believe that they can ask deceased Christians, particularly those known to be in heaven, for their intercession with God. Because of her unique relationship with Christ and because of her.
Okay - you notice the poster states "those known to be in heaven." If someone is heaven, they are not deceased - maybe semantics, but a difference, IMHO.
Sure enough, there was an example of teaching praying to saints
Notice the actual request of the prayer to the saints: "Speak to God for us that we might have the kind of courage you showed in your lives." I would ask you to do the same for me - I dunno if you're especially courageous, but I ask that you keep me in your prayers. Again, like I said above, Christians who "die" become more fully alive than any of us. Since the Saints are in Heaven, and we know Heaven can hear us (see, the Psalmist commanding Angels) we can ask the saints to pray for us.
If you want prayers to Mary, it is probably not on that site for the same reason the Our Father isn't - the Hail Mary is committed to memory pretty darn early. Its something most Catholics just know.