Posted on 05/02/2008 2:09:51 PM PDT by Augustinian monk
(Sorry. I just can't he'p myself.)
***DARN you! Darn you to HECK!***
Why don’t I find a statue of Mary and start worshipping her and then I won’t be darned. I guess.
“Why don’t I find a statue of Mary and start worshipping her and then I won’t be darned. I guess.”
Or a stump of a tree or a stock of a tree (IP?); that’s what I have been told we Orthodoxers worship (I still have no idea whats that means) and we aren’t darned at all.
Thanks for your testimony of how a confession can work. It all sounds good so far, and very Biblical. We should confess our sins to one another in addition to God, and it is good to seek the counsel of other Christians who can help us spiritually.
Then the priest will suggest a penance - a thing which is mischaracterized by many. It's not the price of a sin or its fine or whatever, not in practice. It's more like a pantomime of being willing to pay if I could but I can't AND a sort of therapy.
I've never heard it put that way before, so this sounds a lot more palatable. :) My view is that God personally takes care of the punishment/penance of sins against Him. So, I would see the penance of a man to be sort of "extra". However, that doesn't make it bad. If it helps to sanctify the person and act as a deterrent, then by all means it could be a great thing. As you describe it I don't have any problems at all.
And it bugs me that I can't remember the formula but it's along the lines of "God forgives the penitent and has given to His Church the authority to forgive sins, SO I absolve you ...".
And this would be at the heart of my beef, but otherwise I really don't see much downside. :)
As to forgiving in error, I would say there's an analogy to the unworthy reception of the Sacrament. A little tiny germ of contrition is all that's required, but if one is confessing adultery while at the same time planning to meet with his paramour later on that day - there is no absolution.
If I interpret this correctly, it would mean that no one is forgiven until GOD says he is forgiven. That would seem right and proper to me.
YOU simply MUST read the Divine Comedy. I strongly recommend Dorothy Sayers translation and READ the NOTES! (some of which were written by a kind of aunt/cousin by marriage of mine, Barbara Reynolds)
That's really cool to have that connection. ... We had to read Inferno in 9th grade. Unfortunately, I don't remember much and was probably too young to read it at the time. Being the different person I am now, it probably would be worth a look. Thanks for the advice.
So when I was in PT for a torn sub-acromial ligament (ow! keeping sheep has its hazards) I was delighted but not surprised that while we were all in pain and submitting to tortures from the therapists, we were all laughing and joking and happy, because we were all getting better!
I hear you. I've been through PT for a dislocated shoulder ..... TWICE! Not fun at all, but it was good to see improvement, etc. I suppose if I do wind up in purgatory someday I will be a little embarrassed, but glad to be there verses the alternative. :)
Like the Hanes commercial? They don't say "Absolved" until I (thunder clap) say they're absolved.
To get all formal, by analogy, to Make a "Real" baptism, you gotta have a human type person, water, and a Trinitarian Formula.
To make a "Real" confession, the human type person has to bring "true contrition". Now, of course, as we grow, we see the horror of our sins more clearly. So we can reason backwards to say that our contrition in the early years is highly incomplete. But it's real. Sin numbs the moral sense as a rule, I think, and confuses the mind. So we can't "See" what we're confession so very well when we're young or otherwise immature.
But it's enough. A cold kind of deductive perception that, "Yeah, that was wrong and I guess when I think about it it show contempt for God and I wish I hadn't done it and, even though I bet I do it again, right now I sort of a little mean not to do it again," that seems to be enough.
But "I'm planning on doing it again in about three hours," that makes an invalid sacrament.
Sacramental theology is tricky. We use words and language that make it wound mechanical: Put this prayer in here, get that grace out there. But I think that's more because we're struggling to give an account than anything else. Even if the prayers are rattled off by a lukewarm priest with allergies, the actual texts (I'm thinking of Mass here) are requests. "Please God, do what you promised, please."
And while the movies have more fun with the "bad" and "hard" cases of refused absolution (I've never heard of an actual case -- even with the names changed to protect the seal) the ssacrament really is thought of and experienced, at least by some, those who have frequent recourse to it, as "pastoral".
Of course the good jokes depend on penance being thought of as "punishment". And in the early days, those boys gave penances! But I think the best that can be said about a lot of clergy 40+ years ago (from what I hear and read) is that they were pretty legalistic. And as you read in the Inferno people have tried to "game" confession. It doesn't work, sez Dante.
I think the POINT of the Inferno is not likely to be appreciated by a 9th grader. Sin is its own punishment. Every one in Dante's Hell just does more clearly what they did that got them there.
I'm just preparing to tackle the Paradiso in the new translation. My recollection is that it's pretty austere in parts, but a wonderful vision. I LOVE this poem!
I personally will weep for joy. We call the folks in Purgatory, "the holy souls". They're being made holy! Is that a deal or WHAT?
...... Seriously though, I hope to be at least so "converted" that I see clearly that the Love of God is important and the disapproval of some crotchety priest is not.
Yes, that would make sense as the view of a mature-in-the-faith-Catholic. I would pray that the vast majority of Catholics are mature in the faith. :) (I have no idea.)
But you've given me a good "intention", as we Papists say, and I will pray tomorrow at Mass for the gift of an increase of faith and courage for all those too ashamed to make use of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
In that case I will LITERALLY join in that prayer. :) Putting aside "my beef", the whole thing seems like it's worthwhile. I can think of certain politicians who couldn't possibly have had a true confession in decades. I think our country might be in better shape now if they had. :)
Your Bible damns people to hell? Wow. Do you worship it too?
Actually, that should have read,
That is why Bibles are necessary, so people are not damned to hell by the false teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
Clear enough now?
No, you stated that the Church wanted control to keep the people in ignorance and darkness. The Church proclaims the Gospel of Jesus Christ in greater quantity and more frequently (a minimum of once per calendar day) than any Protestant church that I have ever observed.
And that has nothing to do with the fact that they historically have attempted to keep Bibles out of the hands of the average person.
Moreover, the 'Gospel' that your 'church' proclaims is a false one.
Acts 17:11 - These Jews were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so - refers to their reception of Paul and Silas and whether or not their preaching checked with the Old Testament. Remember that the NT was not yet written - presumably some early Pauline letters only - and therefore your conclusion is obviously wrong.
Yes, they were checking the Old Testament scriptures, to see if what Paul was saying was true or not.
So, my conclusion is entirely correct.
The principle is that even Apostles were to be judged by the Scriptures, New or Old Testament.
[ ***Actually many copies were made*** ]
How many? Estimated population of Italy, the British Isles, France, Iberia, Germany and Scandinavia was 55 million in 1300. A few hundred were made. How did that help the 54.9 million illiterates?
We were talking about England, and Wycliff.
Wycliff's teaching did effect Europe with the rise of Jan Hus and his own movement in Bohemia.
Whatever the amount produced, there was a strong demand for the truth of God's words in the peoples own language.
[ ***Did I say that Gutenberg didn’t print with offical approval? First, why should anyone have to print with anyone’s approval-a fact that doesn’t seem to bother you and your fellow Roman Catholics, all who claim to love American freedoms, freedoms that came from the Protestant Bible, not any Roman Catholic one.***]
You are the one claiming hat the Church wanted to keep everyone in ignorance and didn’t want people reading Bibles. Why would the Church push Gutenberg to publish Bibles if they didn’t want people to read them?
Because they still had control over the production of books.
They didn't realize that it was going to get out of control.
Why are you going on about freedoms? We want accuracy when it comes to the Word of God, not the freedom to publish any old crap that it occurs to one to publish. We have several editions such as the New Inclusive Translation which is the logical outcome of ‘freedom’.
And who is this 'we' and who is it that determines 'accuracy'?
If you don't like a version, you don't have to buy it.
But then again, you are not too concerned about actually reading a Bible, the daily readings at the Mass suffice.
But your hatred of freedom is very revealing.
[ ***Second, the only bigotry that is made clear is your obvious inability to read what is actually written and to twist it to make it fit your own preconceived views of truth.*** ]
2000 years of watching people try to put a new spin on the Good News of Jesus Christ all the time gives one a good perspective on things.
The Roman Catholic Church doesn't have the 'good news' of Jesus Christ, they put people under bondage to a tyrannical system of dead works, idols, mysticism and spiritual death.
No Roman Catholic can say with any certainly that if he would die in the next instant where he would be.
That is because no Roman Catholic is depending on the saving work of Christ to save him, but on the merits of the works of the flesh.
[ *** Remove the thin veneer of American values from you and most of the other Roman Catholics on these threads, and none of you would have any problem obeying Roman Catholics decrees attacking those same freedoms and using any means to do so.***]
In other words, you claim that freedom entails the right to print lies and call them truth; to twist meanings and call them real and to make up theology as you go along.
I think freedom entails the right to print lies so that truth can be printed as well.
What I don't think freedom means is having someone else determine for me what I should or should not read.
That is what the 1st Amendement of the Constitution represents, and it is the first thing that is suppressed in any nation controlled by Roman Catholicism-as your own views clearly attest to.
We are talking about God’s Truth here, not personal freedoms. Remember that Paul writes of himself as a slave to Christ.
Yes, because Paul was a servant to Christ, he was a free man.
This nations freedoms are built on those self-evident Biblical truths.
Look it up.
The fact is that as fast as the Bibles were printed they were sold.
Actually no, King Henry broke with Rome in 1534. Tyndale was murdered just two years later.
Must be a typo in there somewhere. Did you mean to say "so many..." It's still a load of hooey, but at least it should have its own internal logic.
You are correct, it was poorly written.
It should have read, 'that is why Bibles are necessary, so people are NOT damned to hell by the false teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.'
Not possible, and logically absurd.
Exactly as the Bible teaches. (Eph.2:8-9)
Close. It was printed to provide an accurate alternative to all the garbage translations floating around at the time....Geneva's just one of them.
So, the fact is that the D-R was printed largely in response to the Protestant Bibles and not to give the people the word of God.
Actually, the early Douay is closer to the Geneva, then the modern garbage put out today.
It at least has 1Cor.1:18 correct, unlike modern versions, denying the Roman Catholic doctrine that salvation is a process and not an event.
“The fierceness and destructiveness of the opponents of Tyndale’s translation systematically followed up and destroyed the thousands of copies that had been widely sold through England and Scotland” (Price, The Ancestry of Our English Bible, pp. 247,48). This hatred of Tyndale’s Bible was so aggressive and thorough that though thousands of copies were printed (Simms says no less than 18,000 between 1525 and 1528), only ONE complete copy and ONE partial copy and ONE fragment and of the first edition are known to be in existence today. In 1527, Tyndale testified to the animosity that was being heaped upon him and his Bible by Catholic authorities in Britain: “In burning the New Testament, they did none other thing than I looked for; no more shall they do if they burn me also, if it be God’s will it shall so be. Nevertheless in translating the New Testament I did my duty and so do I now…”
http://www.wayoflife.org/articles/williamtyndale.htm
Eph.2:8-9 is not "the Bible," it is part of the Bible.
That passage concerns works of the law, and Paul is right: circumcision is not necessary for salvation; the uncircumcised gentiles of Ephesus are just as saved through Christ as the circumcised Jews.
Absurd. Exploiting the new printing technology to print a Bible is a strange way indeed "not to give the people the word of God."
The D-R was printed, in part, to give the people the Word of God in an accurate translation, lest the garbage translations like Tyndale, Geneva, etc., hold sway.
The question of the number of "mature" Catholics or mature any-Christian-denomination is one that troubles me.
I don't know what it's like in your tradition, but in the Episcopal Church as well as the RC, Christmas and Easter always bring out people who never come to services any other time. There's always a temptation to say, as one greets people at the door on the way out,"Oh! Nice to see you! Will I see you again in X months?" Or, "You know, We're open YEAR ROUND! We have services EVERY SUNDAY! It would be great to see you at one or two of them."
The inner life of clergy: NOT a pretty thing ...
Especially in Mississippi there was a church-going culture. I used to say that there seemed to be a tidal force which lifted people out of their beds on Sunday morning, got them dressed and prettied up, and deposited them in a pew, and many of them had no idea why they were there.
So, you scatter seeds and commend them to God. You remind yourself that God's love for these people does not vary with the depth of their spiritual insight or the frequency of their attendance at services; and that right up until he was knocked to the ground, Paul was not exactly playing team ball — not for OUR team anyway.
And people grow in such funny ways, advancing along this front while leaving that huge flank exposed, but then, years later, bringing up the rest of their assets all of a sudden.
My friend who hasn't been to confession since forever, is in many ways a very thoughtful and loving Christian. The smart money is on the proposition that there are some gaps in her insight and, well, other stuff. But she is in many ways an inspiration to me, and her children (all 8 of them!) rise up and call her blessed.
I think the majority of us enter Purgatory looking like an athlete who, say, did nothing but curls but never once did a press — huge biceps and atrophied triceps, powerful here and myasthenic there.
There is the added matter of psychological "differences". There are a lot of wounded people out there, a lot. I happen to know a number of people with "Character Trait/Personality Disorder" issues. When they're not actively beating up on me, I often wonder what are the traces and gifts of grace in souls so distressed. (When they ARE beating up on me, I mostly look for cover.) As a sort of related example, a guy who hauls his sorry and drunken behind to ninety AA meetings in ninety days MAY be exhibiting as great an internal act of the Holy Spirit as some saint who gives all she has for the poor, just as the paraplegic who crawls 10 feet may be showing as much determination as the athlete who runs a mile.
I had not been to many personal confession in the Episcopal Church, but I had been to some, before the day that the priest said, "Go in Peace, the Lord has put away all your sins." Leaving entirely to one side the question of sacramental validity, THAT was the day that I "heard" that it was MY sins that had been put away, that this was not a generic observation but one "with my name on it." I had studied and prayed and worshipped and even fasted, and it had never hit me that it was ME, as in MOI, that IHS died to save.
But I can't and won't say all that other stuff didn't prepare me for that moment. And after that moment I still had (and have) lots of growing to do. So yeah. there are immature Catholics, and a lot of them are probably "gaming" confession, and indeed gaming a lot of their life with Christ. But IHS is patient — and sneaky. I'll let Him handle them.
Probably with the methods in use, they could manage printing one a day — if that.
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