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...... And the pastor will give a kind of summation of our previous conversation about the "root" of the sin and ways to be on the lookout for it or to avoid it or whatnot. ......

Thanks for your testimony of how a confession can work. It all sounds good so far, and very Biblical. We should confess our sins to one another in addition to God, and it is good to seek the counsel of other Christians who can help us spiritually.

Then the priest will suggest a penance - a thing which is mischaracterized by many. It's not the price of a sin or its fine or whatever, not in practice. It's more like a pantomime of being willing to pay if I could but I can't AND a sort of therapy.

I've never heard it put that way before, so this sounds a lot more palatable. :) My view is that God personally takes care of the punishment/penance of sins against Him. So, I would see the penance of a man to be sort of "extra". However, that doesn't make it bad. If it helps to sanctify the person and act as a deterrent, then by all means it could be a great thing. As you describe it I don't have any problems at all.

And it bugs me that I can't remember the formula but it's along the lines of "God forgives the penitent and has given to His Church the authority to forgive sins, SO I absolve you ...".

And this would be at the heart of my beef, but otherwise I really don't see much downside. :)

As to forgiving in error, I would say there's an analogy to the unworthy reception of the Sacrament. A little tiny germ of contrition is all that's required, but if one is confessing adultery while at the same time planning to meet with his paramour later on that day - there is no absolution.

If I interpret this correctly, it would mean that no one is forgiven until GOD says he is forgiven. That would seem right and proper to me.

YOU simply MUST read the Divine Comedy. I strongly recommend Dorothy Sayers translation and READ the NOTES! (some of which were written by a kind of aunt/cousin by marriage of mine, Barbara Reynolds)

That's really cool to have that connection. ... We had to read Inferno in 9th grade. Unfortunately, I don't remember much and was probably too young to read it at the time. Being the different person I am now, it probably would be worth a look. Thanks for the advice.

So when I was in PT for a torn sub-acromial ligament (ow! keeping sheep has its hazards) I was delighted but not surprised that while we were all in pain and submitting to tortures from the therapists, we were all laughing and joking and happy, because we were all getting better!

I hear you. I've been through PT for a dislocated shoulder ..... TWICE! Not fun at all, but it was good to see improvement, etc. I suppose if I do wind up in purgatory someday I will be a little embarrassed, but glad to be there verses the alternative. :)

If I interpret this correctly, it would mean that no one is forgiven until GOD says he is forgiven. That would seem right and proper to me.

Like the Hanes commercial? They don't say "Absolved" until I (thunder clap) say they're absolved.

To get all formal, by analogy, to Make a "Real" baptism, you gotta have a human type person, water, and a Trinitarian Formula.

To make a "Real" confession, the human type person has to bring "true contrition". Now, of course, as we grow, we see the horror of our sins more clearly. So we can reason backwards to say that our contrition in the early years is highly incomplete. But it's real. Sin numbs the moral sense as a rule, I think, and confuses the mind. So we can't "See" what we're confession so very well when we're young or otherwise immature.

But it's enough. A cold kind of deductive perception that, "Yeah, that was wrong and I guess when I think about it it show contempt for God and I wish I hadn't done it and, even though I bet I do it again, right now I sort of a little mean not to do it again," that seems to be enough.

But "I'm planning on doing it again in about three hours," that makes an invalid sacrament.

Sacramental theology is tricky. We use words and language that make it wound mechanical: Put this prayer in here, get that grace out there. But I think that's more because we're struggling to give an account than anything else. Even if the prayers are rattled off by a lukewarm priest with allergies, the actual texts (I'm thinking of Mass here) are requests. "Please God, do what you promised, please."

And while the movies have more fun with the "bad" and "hard" cases of refused absolution (I've never heard of an actual case -- even with the names changed to protect the seal) the ssacrament really is thought of and experienced, at least by some, those who have frequent recourse to it, as "pastoral".

Of course the good jokes depend on penance being thought of as "punishment". And in the early days, those boys gave penances! But I think the best that can be said about a lot of clergy 40+ years ago (from what I hear and read) is that they were pretty legalistic. And as you read in the Inferno people have tried to "game" confession. It doesn't work, sez Dante.

I think the POINT of the Inferno is not likely to be appreciated by a 9th grader. Sin is its own punishment. Every one in Dante's Hell just does more clearly what they did that got them there.

I'm just preparing to tackle the Paradiso in the new translation. My recollection is that it's pretty austere in parts, but a wonderful vision. I LOVE this poem!