Posted on 04/29/2008 6:06:04 AM PDT by restornu
Ancient writings unearthed in the last century and a half, primarily in Egypt, are lending support to doctrines and teachings of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Brigham Young University professor of antiquities said Sunday.
C. Wilford Griggs, who has written extensively on Egypt and is working on excavating Christian burial grounds in Egypt, said scholars are now admitting that "Joseph Smith got into the antiquities" before experts in the field began their discoveries, but they won't accept his explanation.
Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel, but scholars are refusing to believe that, Griggs said during a fireside, "Joseph Smith and the Egyptian Connection," at the Pleasant Grove Manila Stake Center. Some of the ancient writings have been found in the past few years.
Many scholars are now admitting that the book accepted as scripture by church members is an ancient book, but as one scholar of antiquities told Griggs, he had no problem with the gold plates and Smith's story would be acceptable "if you'd get rid of that angel."
Anciently, the fountain of Christian knowledge was Egypt and the Mediterranean region and for about 1,000 years 90 percent of the people were in the faith "until they were converted to Islam by the sword," he said.
"We are being flooded with (ancient) writings," Griggs said, describing many as coming from the biblical New Testament period. Many of the writings, now totaling about 8,000, are on papyri, but others are on metal plates. None are exactly alike, which lends historical credence to the finds.
The apostles scattered throughout the known world and established pockets of Christianity after the time of Jesus Christ, including Egypt, he said. Some of the best early Christian records were found in Egypt, where they survived because of the climate.
The traditional concept that the Bible is complete came about 400 A.D., he said. Before then Christians knew that many other writings existed.
Many of the Christian teachings found in Egyptian digs that are shared in common with Smith's teachings have to do with the temple "and how the heavens can be open to us," Griggs said.
Among those findings is the teaching of baptism by proxy for folks who have died without learning of Christ and his gospel, which centers on the resurrection.
Anciently, baptism was known as a "sealing" to go to heaven, he said. The word "sealing" is used today in LDS temples in similar fashion.
Most of the writings which have now been found were secret anciently and held back from the people until they proved their worthiness.
Some speak of the potential of their divinity, also a common theme Smith taught, which the first LDS prophet said was given to him by revelation.
"Several of the gospels ... show that revelation was alive and well in the ancient world. Revelation was a keystone," Griggs said.
Yet centuries later, revelation and temples were denounced by religious leaders, including Augustine, as unnecessary.
***I agree that the post Apostolic Christian Father’s don’t understand the true nature of Yahweh. Yet if the post apostolic fathers were really teaching what Christ taught then why did they allow Greek Philosophies such as “Homouosis” and “Trinity” to trump the simple a true gospel of the Bible Text. Show me again where the Bible says “triune”? Do you believe in sola scritpure or not?***
I don’t care if you believe that the Church Fathers understood the “true nature of Yahweh” or not. The Church Fathers understood very well what Jesus taught, reinforced by the Holy Spirit. We passed from a perception of the distant and angry Old Testament God to the New Testament God of Love and Mercy. The Old Testament needs to be understood in the light of the New, and the New Testament needs to be understood in the light of the Gospels. Creating fairy stories nearly two millennia after Jesus was on earth doesn’t make a sound platform on which to move Christian thought. And that is exactly what Joseph Smith attempted to do - to hijack the essence of Christianity for his own fell purposes.
Jesus left the Church, not prose. He is only on record as to writing once - and that was in the sand. Sola Scriptura is a dead end and contrary to the Bible itself. The Church is the legacy of Jesus Christ, not con men or fairy stories.
The Bible does not say Triune. It also doesn’t say that American Indians are the lost tribes of Israel or that golden tablets with gibberish on were planted underground or that a glasslooking con man should be able to unlock the gibberish by looking in his hat.
Ah yes, the FAIR source of truth and accuracy.
Let’s look at some samples:
***First, according to Joseph Smith, Adam was Michael the Archangel in the premortal existence.5 Even now Adam retains his authority: “The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the gospel is sent. When they are revealed from heaven, it is by Adam’s authority.”6
...
Joseph Smith also taught that Adam, as Michael, helped the Father and Son in the creation.
...
the Gnostic Christian Apocalypse of Adam taught that Adam “helps in creation and is higher in rank than the god who created him and Eve ***
Your source lost all credibility with me when it trotted out heretical Tertullian and Origen passages and claimed that early Christianity believed in those heresies.
Your source does confirm, however, that many early heresies that were refuted by the Church have been resurrected by the LDS. Therefore FAIR does an excellent job in associating the LDS with the early heretics and in my opinion should be treated by the Church now as it did to heretics then.
Noone was hacked off?
So the statements and records from the time that refer to those in the area planning to kill and/or drive out the Mormons from Missouri are incorrect?
Your Ministry of Truth is slipping.
***None of those who rebel against the Lord’s Church survived they became splinters which soon wither on the vine!***
Most Protestant denominations are withering right now. The LDS is growing in number, but so are those who have managed to leave.
Very good to be da King.
But even better to be a Prophet. That way you can not only govern your peoples’ bodies, you can rule their minds as well. Come to think of it, Marx had a similar design.
***I was hoping this wouldn’t turn into a bash Mormon thread.***
It really should have been started with a good and accurate article filled with facts and conclusions based on those facts. This one appears similar to a Disney adaptation of a Hans Christian Anderson story that the True Believers would portray as being real, and those real people told that reality is in fact, wrong.
Since the ‘caractors’ can now be placed as at most as old as a scribe for a Roman emperor, the huge lie that these ‘caractors’ were written down a thousands years before that Roman Emperor is a glaring refutation to this heretical cult of mormonism founded upon the now exposed lies and adulteries of this peepstone false prophet named Joseph Smith. But not surprisingly, so many will reject the truth in order to defend the lies.
Since what Saundra calls Mormon bashing is really only truth telling...she will only ever be satisfied with agreement to the LDS propaganda which promotes fraud.
To Believe the Bible survived all these centuries and not one scribe did not make a mistake is saying all men are infallible.
That is also saying there were no designing men along the way and I am not talking about prophets there were many occasion where men were in charge of the Word of God who was given no mantle to do so!
They may have the best intention, but so did those who tried to steady the ark!
This is true about the Book of Mormon on doctrine and ordinances. What Pratt said here is true there is no ambiguity you do not wonder or some one looking for loop holes to down grade an ordinance.
This is the problem mainstream is always running into and that is why there are 30k Plus different churches because many of the doctrine seems left open ended.
This is why the LDS who has a testimony stands firm and can not be rocked!
And those who strive to keep the Lord's commandments are truly blessed
Such a revelation is the Book of Mormon; the most infallible certainty characterizes every ordinance and every doctrinal point revealed in that book. In it there is no ambiguity; no room for controversy; no doctrine so imperfectly expressed that two persons would draw two different conclusions there from...
So the Bible has evidence of Location yet much of the D&C in the Bible is open ended.
The Book of Mormon might not have location Evidence you are looking for but the D&C is infallible!
So you’re validating #132 now, resty? ... Someone in mormonism is going to have to clarify all this double speak before you get tied into a Gordian ‘Not’. Bwahahahaha
The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy:
"Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247)
It is interesting to note that this section in the Doctrine and Covenants was in every single edition until 1876, when the Doctrine and Covenants first included section 132 justifying plural marriage.
At that time the Mormon leaders inserted section 132, which permits a plurality of wives. Obviously, it would have been too contradictory to have one section condemning polygamy and another approving of it in the same book! Therefore, the section condemning polygamy was completely removed from the Doctrine and Covenants.
Note that from the current heading of D&C 132, the church effectively admits the above statement by the church was not true:
"Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831."
Look pretty fallable to me.
***”You need more wives.”***
Having multiple wives means having multiple mothers-in-law.
I’ve got one coming tomorrow to stay the weekend (son’s First Communion) and I’m still considering a work emergency that requires me for unreasonable hours until she leaves. :)
“Look pretty fallable to me.”
Not if you are trying not to see it.
***Why are you always reaching for something that is not there it is very Telestial incline!
I rest my case!***
Why don’t we reach for D&C 132 which commands that a man should take multiple virgins for brides. Why don’t we reach for the Masonic instruction guides? Why don’t we get washed up in the Temple by same sex individuals?
And why don’t we go through the Temple rite portraying the Christian Minister as a knowing tool of satan?
***Just where did Augustine get his authority to dismiss revelation and temples were denounced by religious leaders, including Augustine, as unnecessary.
The Lord withdrew these ordinances from the earth but the Lord never deem them as unnecessary.***
St. Augustine was the greatest Church Doctor. His authority comes from the Church, who had it given to them by the teachings of Jesus and the reception of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
St. Augustine did not pretend to authority by virtue of first having failed as a con man in business and then succeeding as a con man in religion.
So the statements and records from the time that refer to those in the area planning to kill and/or drive out the Mormons from Missouri are incorrect?
You implied Brigham Young hacked off!
They went to Ohio, then Missouri, then back to Illinois, and then when JS got shot, they split up into the Smith family Company (called Reorganized LDS) and the Brigham Young Brigade (who maintained the original name) and got out of Dodge and headed for the wilds of Utah to get away from all the people that they had hacked off.
BTW the Mormons hacked off no one, the people in that area was very jealous at how industrious and prosperous the Mormons were some thing those folks were not able to do themselves and that tick them off!
Is it not the American way to stake your claim and work with God?
I gather the Mormon community bloom very fast and the rest were frighten, because as soon as they arrived there the land was already purchased and all went to work to get house and meeting house built.
That area was empty but the when man allow telestial thinking than those unkind thoughts enter and before you know it Jealousy and anger etc takes over!
In light of these LDS apostle claims:
Why are there errors in the Book of Mormon?
Given the translation process, which Joseph Smith said was God correcting and that the translation wouldn't even proceed if an error, even one letter, existed in the translation, how can there be any errors?
And...knowing that there are errors and imperfections (geographical and other, as you have accepted and agreed to), how do you know which part of the Book of Mormon is error and which part is accurate? This is the big question that you have not responded to.
And furthermore, how do you think that we know that scribes made errors in copying biblical text? BECAUSE WE HAVE OLDER, AND THOUSANDS OF, MANUSCRIPTS THAT GIVE US THE ACCURATE TEXT! And note that geography and archeology have proven the Bible accurate in those matters.
Please answer the specific questions, resty.
You can't have the most correct book and that same book being the one that contains geographical error. The Bible is more correct than that. And Joseph Smith was not just a scribe copying a text...He was the alleged prophet, given by God in a self correcting translation process, the exact translation of the restored gospel. You are comparing apples and oranges, here.
The Book of Mormon might not have location Evidence you are looking for but the D&C is infallible!
Has a LDS apostle/prophet ever spoken about what would happen to the entire Book of Mormon if one part contained error?
***The Hellenization of post apostolic Christianity is well established fact. Many modern Christians assume it was a good thing,***
The Greeks were the ones who did the documentation and it was from the ranks of the Greeks that the Church grew and spread the Good News of Jesus.
Acts describes the point when the Apostles finally broke with Judaism and became truly Christian (we had it as the first reading a couple of weeks ago in Mass).
God tried to get the Jews to accept Him throughout the OT and by and large failed. Jesus started the spreading of the Good News beyond the Jewish communities.
The NT was mostly written in Greek; God brought in the Greeks in order to make the Church successful. This is the Church of Jesus Christ, not an government of men. The analogy does not stand.
"Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247)
Article on Marriage.
"According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies; therefore we believe that all marriages in this Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints should be solemnized in a public meeting or feast prepared for that purpose, and that the solemnization should be performed by a Presiding High Priest, High Priest, Bishop, Elder or Priest, not even prohibiting those persons who are desirous to get married, of being married by other authority.
We believe that it is not right to prohibit members of this Church from marrying out of the Church, if it be their determination so to do; but such persons will be considered weak in the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ."Marriage should be celebrated with prayer and thanksgiving, and at the solemnization, the persons to be married, standing together, the man on the right and the woman on the left, shall be addressed by the person officiating as he shall be directed by the Holy Spirit, and if there be no legal objections, he shall say, calling each by name: 'You both mutually agree to be each other's companion, husband and wife, observing the legal rights belonging to this condition: that is, keeping yourselves wholly for each other, and from all others, during your lives?' And when they have both answered 'yes,' he shall pronounce them 'husband and wife,' in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by virtue of the laws of the country and authority vested in him. 'May God add His blessing and keep you to fulfill your covenants from henceforth and forever. Amen.'
"The clerk of every church should keep a record of all marriages solemnized in his branch. All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this Church should be held sacred and fulfilled.
Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband; neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband.
All children are bound by law to obey their parents, and to influence them to embrace any religious faith, or be baptized, or leave their parents without their consent, is unlawful and unjust. We believe that husbands, parents, and masters, who exercise control over their wives, children and servants, and prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin."President Oliver Cowdery then read the following article on "Governments and Laws in General," which was accepted and adopted and ordered to be printed in said book, by a unanimous vote:
This does not look like a revelation to me just and Article of Marriage!
There is no saying from the Lord Jesus Christ etc. it was not a revelation! even read the intro -
"According to the custom of all civilized nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies; therefore we believe that all marriages in this Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints should be solemnized in a public meeting or feast prepared for that purpose,
from (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247)
I think that it’s fascinating that the LDS refer to the rest of the world as Gentiles. Something else that they tried to usurp.
Gentile means non Jew. Does that mean that all the LDS thinks that they are the replacement Jews?
You said D&C was infallable.
The Book of Mormon might not have location Evidence you are looking for but the D&C is infallible!
368 posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 1:38:37 PM by restornu
Polygamy was prohibited by the infallable D&C from 1835 - 1876. During that time, mormons practiced polygamy. That meets the standard of being VERY fallable. :)
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