Posted on 04/04/2008 11:01:22 AM PDT by Gamecock
Last week I received the following e-mail, and I felt it would be best to share my response here on the blog.
Dear Mr. White, For someone considering converting to Catholicism, what questions would you put to them in order to discern whether or not they have examined their situation sufficiently? Say, a Top 10 list. Thanks.
When I posted this question in our chat channel a number of folks commented that it was in fact a great question, and we started to throw out some possible answers. Here is my "Top Ten List" in response to this fine inquiry.
10) Have you listened to both sides? That is, have you done more than read Rome Sweet Home and listen to a few emotion-tugging conversion stories? Have you actually taken the time to find sound, serious responses to Rome's claims, those offered by writers ever since the Reformation, such as Goode, Whitaker, Salmon, and modern writers? I specifically exclude from this list anything by Jack Chick and Dave Hunt.
9) Have you read an objective history of the early church? I refer to one that would explain the great diversity of viewpoints to be found in the writings of the first centuries, and that accurately explains the controversies, struggles, successes and failures of those early believers?
8) Have you looked carefully at the claims of Rome in a historical light, specifically, have you examined her claims regarding the "unanimous consent" of the Fathers, and all the evidence that exists that stands contrary not only to the universal claims of the Papacy but especially to the concept of Papal Infallibility? How do you explain, consistently, the history of the early church in light of modern claims made by Rome? How do you explain such things as the Pornocracy and the Babylonian Captivity of the Church without assuming the truthfulness of the very system you are embracing?
7) Have you applied the same standards to the testing of Rome's ultimate claims of authority that Roman Catholic apologists use to attack sola scriptura? How do you explain the fact that Rome's answers to her own objections are circular? For example, if she claims you need the Church to establish an infallible canon, how does that actually answer the question, since you now have to ask how Rome comes to have this infallible knowledge. Or if it is argued that sola scriptura produces anarchy, why doesn't Rome's magisterium produce unanimity and harmony? And if someone claims there are 33,000 denominations due to sola scriptura, since that outrageous number has been debunked repeatedly (see Eric Svendsen's Upon This Slippery Rock for full documentation), have you asked them why they are so dishonest and sloppy with their research?
6) Have you read the Papal Syllabus of Errors and Indulgentiarum Doctrina? Can anyone read the description of grace found in the latter document and pretend for even a moment that is the doctrine of grace Paul taught to the Romans?
5) Have you seriously considered the ramifications of Rome's doctrine of sin, forgiveness, eternal and temporal punishments, purgatory, the treasury of merit, transubstantiation, sacramental priesthood, and indulgences? Have you seriously worked through compelling and relevant biblical texts like Ephesians 2, Romans 3-5, Galatians 1-2, Hebrews 7-10 and all of John 6, in light of Roman teaching?
4) Have you pondered what it means to embrace a system that teaches you approach the sacrifice of Christ thousands of times in your life and yet you can die impure, and, in fact, even die an enemy of God, though you came to the cross over and over again? And have you pondered what it means that though the historical teachings of Rome on these issues are easily identifiable, the vast majority of Roman Catholics today, including priests, bishops, and scholars, don't believe these things anymore?
3) Have you considered what it means to proclaim a human being the Holy Father (that's a divine name, used by Jesus only of His Father) and the Vicar of Christ (that's the Holy Spirit)? Do you really find anything in Scripture whatsoever that would lead you to believe it was Christ's will that a bishop in a city hundreds of miles away in Rome would not only be the head of His church but would be treated as a king upon earth, bowed down to and treated the way the Roman Pontiff is treated?
2) Have you considered how completely unbiblical and a-historical is the entire complex of doctrines and dogmas related to Mary? Do you seriously believe the Apostles taught that Mary was immaculately conceived, and that she was a perpetual virgin (so that she traveled about Palestine with a group of young men who were not her sons, but were Jesus' cousins, or half-brothers (children of a previous marriage of Joseph), or the like? Do you really believe that dogmas defined nearly 2,000 years after the birth of Christ represent the actual teachings of the Apostles? Are you aware that such doctrines as perpetual virginity and bodily assumption have their origin in gnosticism, not Christianity, and have no foundation in apostolic doctrine or practice? How do you explain how it is you must believe these things de fide, by faith, when generations of Christians lived and died without ever even having heard of such things?
And the number 1 question I would ask of such a person is: if you claim to have once embraced the gospel of grace, whereby you confessed that your sole standing before a thrice-holy God was the seamless garment of the imputed righteousness of Christ, so that you claimed no merit of your own, no mixture of other merit with the perfect righteousness of Christ, but that you stood full and complete in Him and in Him alone, at true peace with God because there is no place in the universe safer from the wrath of God than in Christ, upon what possible grounds could you come to embrace a system that at its very heart denies you the peace that is found in a perfect Savior who accomplishes the Father's will and a Spirit who cannot fail but to bring that work to fruition in the life of God's elect? Do you really believe that the endless cycle of sacramental forgiveness to which you will now commit yourself can provide you the peace that the perfect righteousness of Christ can not?
Nothing like heritage to foster fierceness, eh?
Thanks for your thoughtful and perceptive insights.
There is in his posts regarding Catholicism an odd inverse relationship between the inaccuracy of an allegation and his blustery certainty in alleging it.
= = =
Actually, QUITE the OPPOSITE.
But I’m beginning to get a better sense of how serious the perceptual problem is between the two camps.
Well, at least a elevated degree feistiness.
Yeah, wellll, mine comes out of a list of crucibles, too.
Didn’t you have some minor surgery recently? How’s the results now. Or am I thinking of someone else?
GBWY,
This should be a good conversation starter
Absolutely. We are saved by Grace through faith.
Nor do we think we have a corner on scriptural knowledge. I’ve no doubt there are some areas in which I need to grow. Who among us, for example, can honestly claim to have as good a grasp of Isaiah-Malachi as we do of Matthew-Revelation?
At any rate the tone and tenor of that reply was mean and nasty and I regret posting it. I've been a Freeper since April 2 1998 (Happy belated Anniversary to me) and I have always tried to refrain from posting to threads like this because it's always the same story, the same arguements and the same old charges and allegations. I am not a shrinking violet by nature and have a personality more suited to political disputes than religious.
Sorry, but I spent two years studying RC doctrines before converting. FYI, the rejection of sort of "clericalism" your refer to was a major driving force behind Vatican II. Y'see, I've read the relevant Catholic docs, and know precisely what they say, and the Church has specifically rejected the idea.
I suggest more study on your part.
All of the Protestant denominations I know of consider the few sacraments they do practice as symbolic only (the quote a line from my Baptist business partners Sunday School lesson---"an outward sign of an inner conversion")--NOT a rite that actually confers the sacred benefits. Despite that, the RC church accepts as valid baptisms performed "according to the Trinitarian formula" as valid, as anyone can validly perform baptism, because the RC church DOES believe that the rite, properly performed, yields the desired result. But as for the rest, without a valid apostolic succession, they ARE meaningless symbols, which leaves both the Lutherans and Episcopalians out to dry.
Would you say that this equally applies to the Eucharist? The "desired result" would be transubstantiation, but what precisely is the "sacred benefit" conferred in that case?
Thank you so much, Marysecretary. That does make me feel better!
If I make it (Lord willing) I’m sure we’ll be praising Him together!
Not necessarily...Your husband being a Baptist, would believe that he is a Christian by accepting Jesus as his Savior...That Jesus paid the entire price for his Salvation; that he could do NOTHING of himself to become righteous enough to get saved, and that he is saved for eternity, right now...
Catholics believe, in my best estimate, that you become a Christian by ultimately joining their religion...
What separates Christians from the non-Christians is whether or not they have the Kingdom of God within them...
Some religions teach that the Kingdom of God is their religion...A physical Kingdom with a hierarchy with priests, bishops, etc...Buildings; an organized religion...
Only if the Kingdom of God lives within a person can that person be a Christian...
Yes.
"The "desired result" would be transubstantiation, but what precisely is the "sacred benefit" conferred in that case?"
Joining one's life to God--literally, is the main one. Washing away venial sin is another. Obeying God's command is a third.
We have a VBS at our parish. They try really hard and those of us who volunteer do our best.
But I have to say that the VBS at the Lutheran church up the street is DA BOMB!
Even in our homeschooling groups, the smart Catholics know that the Protestants have more experience than we do and are willing to share that (Lord Love them!). I use Switched On Schoolhouse from Alpha Omega for homeschooling. I show it to other Catholic moms who are burnt out on scheduling and such. It’s a dream for those who have tons of kids to educate and are running out of time. Some of the moms at our parish want a strictly Catholic education for their kids. Personally, God centered is God centered, in my book. And those parts that stray from Catholic teachings, give me an opportunity to talk to my kids about it. Keeps them out of the bubble so to speak.
God Bless you!
We learn from you so many times!
Like Protestantism's foundational dogma of "The Bible Alone"?
The above question presumes the validity of the unbiblical doctrine of "Sola Scriptura," a 500 year-old, man-made tradition, with no historical precedent prior to Luther.
Truths of faith may indeed be found outside of Scripture. Interestingly enough, the Bible calls Christ's Church "the pillar and foundation of truth."
As far as Marian dogmas go, look into the way Bathsheba was treated as the wife of the king of the House of David, and the way Bathsheba was treated as the mother of the king of the House of David. In the former role, she bowed to the king; in the latter role, the king bowed to her.
Jesus is the eternal king of the House of David, which makes Mary the "Queen Mother," or Gebirah. This exalted role (as the Queen of Heaven or the greatest of all the saints) is clearly indicated in Rev 12:1.
Zinc tablets...Someone told me to take Zinc, it will improve my memory...
Trouble is, I can't remember to take the pills...:(
We didn’t persecute your people...and Martin Luther was no noble person either. Want to blame the Inquition and Crusades on us again *yawn.* We can go into how southern pentecostal religions supported slavery and how protestants burned churches and harassed Irish and Italian immigrant Catholics but I guess that is okay for YOU, right. Give it up!!!
Quix, help me out...Looking for a song...
It starts:
Praise, Praise, Praise, Praise...
In one accord, we praise you O’Lord...
Can’t remember the singer and can’t find the song on the net...Any ideas???
They exist, I watched an NBC news item about them in Tennessee. Now, I know you think Catholicism is a false cult, well, tell Rev. Hagee I said hi. I am a Catholic, and a proud conservative one. I was baptized one. Went to Catholic school. Communion, penance, the works. I am a proud Catholic and if you don’t like me nor my religion, you all can stuff it.
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