Before you convert to Roman Catholicism... (Top Ten List)

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2007/08/before_you_convert_to_roman_ca.php ^ | 7 Aug 2007 | James White

[Gamecock]

Last week I received the following e-mail, and I felt it would be best to share my response here on the blog.

Dear Mr. White, For someone considering converting to Catholicism, what questions would you put to them in order to discern whether or not they have examined their situation sufficiently? Say, a Top 10 list. Thanks.

When I posted this question in our chat channel a number of folks commented that it was in fact a great question, and we started to throw out some possible answers. Here is my "Top Ten List" in response to this fine inquiry.

10) Have you listened to both sides? That is, have you done more than read Rome Sweet Home and listen to a few emotion-tugging conversion stories? Have you actually taken the time to find sound, serious responses to Rome's claims, those offered by writers ever since the Reformation, such as Goode, Whitaker, Salmon, and modern writers? I specifically exclude from this list anything by Jack Chick and Dave Hunt.

9) Have you read an objective history of the early church? I refer to one that would explain the great diversity of viewpoints to be found in the writings of the first centuries, and that accurately explains the controversies, struggles, successes and failures of those early believers?

8) Have you looked carefully at the claims of Rome in a historical light, specifically, have you examined her claims regarding the "unanimous consent" of the Fathers, and all the evidence that exists that stands contrary not only to the universal claims of the Papacy but especially to the concept of Papal Infallibility? How do you explain, consistently, the history of the early church in light of modern claims made by Rome? How do you explain such things as the Pornocracy and the Babylonian Captivity of the Church without assuming the truthfulness of the very system you are embracing?

7) Have you applied the same standards to the testing of Rome's ultimate claims of authority that Roman Catholic apologists use to attack sola scriptura? How do you explain the fact that Rome's answers to her own objections are circular? For example, if she claims you need the Church to establish an infallible canon, how does that actually answer the question, since you now have to ask how Rome comes to have this infallible knowledge. Or if it is argued that sola scriptura produces anarchy, why doesn't Rome's magisterium produce unanimity and harmony? And if someone claims there are 33,000 denominations due to sola scriptura, since that outrageous number has been debunked repeatedly (see Eric Svendsen's Upon This Slippery Rock for full documentation), have you asked them why they are so dishonest and sloppy with their research?

6) Have you read the Papal Syllabus of Errors and Indulgentiarum Doctrina? Can anyone read the description of grace found in the latter document and pretend for even a moment that is the doctrine of grace Paul taught to the Romans?

5) Have you seriously considered the ramifications of Rome's doctrine of sin, forgiveness, eternal and temporal punishments, purgatory, the treasury of merit, transubstantiation, sacramental priesthood, and indulgences? Have you seriously worked through compelling and relevant biblical texts like Ephesians 2, Romans 3-5, Galatians 1-2, Hebrews 7-10 and all of John 6, in light of Roman teaching?

4) Have you pondered what it means to embrace a system that teaches you approach the sacrifice of Christ thousands of times in your life and yet you can die impure, and, in fact, even die an enemy of God, though you came to the cross over and over again? And have you pondered what it means that though the historical teachings of Rome on these issues are easily identifiable, the vast majority of Roman Catholics today, including priests, bishops, and scholars, don't believe these things anymore?

3) Have you considered what it means to proclaim a human being the Holy Father (that's a divine name, used by Jesus only of His Father) and the Vicar of Christ (that's the Holy Spirit)? Do you really find anything in Scripture whatsoever that would lead you to believe it was Christ's will that a bishop in a city hundreds of miles away in Rome would not only be the head of His church but would be treated as a king upon earth, bowed down to and treated the way the Roman Pontiff is treated?

2) Have you considered how completely unbiblical and a-historical is the entire complex of doctrines and dogmas related to Mary? Do you seriously believe the Apostles taught that Mary was immaculately conceived, and that she was a perpetual virgin (so that she traveled about Palestine with a group of young men who were not her sons, but were Jesus' cousins, or half-brothers (children of a previous marriage of Joseph), or the like? Do you really believe that dogmas defined nearly 2,000 years after the birth of Christ represent the actual teachings of the Apostles? Are you aware that such doctrines as perpetual virginity and bodily assumption have their origin in gnosticism, not Christianity, and have no foundation in apostolic doctrine or practice? How do you explain how it is you must believe these things de fide, by faith, when generations of Christians lived and died without ever even having heard of such things?

And the number 1 question I would ask of such a person is: if you claim to have once embraced the gospel of grace, whereby you confessed that your sole standing before a thrice-holy God was the seamless garment of the imputed righteousness of Christ, so that you claimed no merit of your own, no mixture of other merit with the perfect righteousness of Christ, but that you stood full and complete in Him and in Him alone, at true peace with God because there is no place in the universe safer from the wrath of God than in Christ, upon what possible grounds could you come to embrace a system that at its very heart denies you the peace that is found in a perfect Savior who accomplishes the Father's will and a Spirit who cannot fail but to bring that work to fruition in the life of God's elect? Do you really believe that the endless cycle of sacramental forgiveness to which you will now commit yourself can provide you the peace that the perfect righteousness of Christ can not?

[visualops]

He wasn’t talking about not hearing the bible, tiki. He was talking about the true Gospel.

That's odd, the Gospels I hear in Mass are found in the Bible. Where is your "true Gospel"?

[Marysecretary]

I believe in the years to come, times will be so bad that the barriars between us won’t matter any more. We’ll be clinging to God for everything we need and pressing into Him during tumultuous times. Then ONLY GOD will matter.

[Marysecretary]

Oh, a good man comes to mind...LOL.

[steve86]

Good for you.

Regarding the “need for entertainment” thing, many younger Catholics are guilty of that as well. The folk guitars didn’t arrive to please God.

That is why, for Catholics, the Traditional Mass (comparison in my profile) is best. No distractions, no accommodation to vernacular or liberal cultural trends, nothing but worship and glorification of Our Lord.

[Marysecretary]

We have an exception VBS in our little church. It’s an amazing time for all of us who get involved, even in a small way like me. I have to go to dialysis two of the days so I can’t do much but the kids love the stamp we put on their hands! LOL. Lots of people get involved and it’s wonderful. Two years in a row we won first prize for our float in the Fourth of July parade. So much work goes into bringing children the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Marysecretary]

We have communion and dedication of infants and adult baptism. Does the job for us.

[steve86]

So do I think that. In fact, if you were reading a thread on another forum I am participating in, you would see that many of us are preparing for an end times-like situation in the immediate future, whether or not it is the actual eschatology of the Book of Revelation.

[Marysecretary]

Snake charmer religion? Guffaw!!! I’ve been a Christian for almost 40 years now and never seen a snake charmer church. You’d be really funny if you weren’t so serious about it. LOL.

[Marysecretary]

I used to be an episcopalian, too. Most churches don’t ordain ‘queers’ but that doesn’t mean there aren’t some. They’re everywhere, especially in Catholic seminaries. Hey, no religion is perfect ya know.

[Marysecretary]

I’m truly sorry you take it that way and that it hurts you personally. Quix has his way of writing and others have theirs. I don’t believe Quix ever intentionally tries to wound someone’s soul but to make them aware of the religious fallacies of too many of our churches, not only the RC’s.

[Marysecretary]

Sometimes it becomes just vain repetition and people don’t really STUDY what it means. There’s a difference between quoting scripture and learning in in studying it. Knowledge doesn’t come by osmosis, it comes from really studying the Word.

[Quix]

THANKS.

It’s so wonderful for someone as precious as you to know and understand me even through such a challenging medium!

Right you are, of course. As I’ve said many times.

It’s interesting, the RC folks expect us to believe their statements and seem to try very little to understand, much less believe ours.

LUB,

Here’s some more music links:

STEVE GREEN BROKEN AND SPILLED OUT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA_bo8DSOwg

BE THOU MY VISION FERNANDO ORTEGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p9sc3anclQ

GIVE ME JESUS FERNANDO ORTEGA; RUTH GRAHAM TRIBUTE PICS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7INRn4LRrE

CHRIST THE LORD IS RISEN TODAY STEVE GREEN

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFIaqn0EG3E

I NEED THEE EVERY HOUR RANDY OWENS GAITHER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VeQrymN568

THIS IS MY FATHER’S WORLD FERNANDO ORTEGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byIpfEVxhs4

JESUS LOVES ME GAITHERS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMCR4p5mSjQ

AMAZING GRACE RUSS TAFF N BOOTH BROTHERS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tm9uAH_VWo

[Marysecretary]

I’m sorry if you haven’t been called a sister in Christ. I would never say you aren’t because I don’t know your heart. People from all denominations will be in heaven or in hell, depending on what they did with Jesus while they were yet alive. I trust I shall see you at the Pearly Gates and am looking forward to it! (Smile)

[Marysecretary]

I’m kinda talking about the usuals, not the lurkers, but yes, you do never know.

We have a Jewish man whose children and former wife come to our church occasionally, when the kids stay with grandma and grandpa. This weekend he accepted Christ as His saviour at an anger seminar held at our church. He’s a precious young man but has been in all sorts of trouble, but God snatched him from the fire and it’s such a delight to see these things happening. It will happen more and more as time draws to a close.

[Marysecretary]

Well, dear dan, I don’t believe either one of us is a liar, but go ahead, vent if it makes you feel better. God bless.

[Marysecretary]

Yeah, we know. We see it on these RC threads all the time, and not from the prottys.

[Chantillie]

*grinz* Well, I'm fairly new to all this (the whole freeper boards and all) but I have to say, I'm enjoying the read~

I was blessed with an amazing family~ I grew up in a Christian home where my parents eloquently imparted amazing lessons in our every day living. One of the things I will never forget is how me and my brother kept our rooms. I was always jealous of my brothers ability to keep is room in perfect order. My brother? Well, he later confessed to me that he was jealous of how relaxed I am about the little things in life (ie: keeping up with my cleaning LOL). I remember discussing it with my parents once, and they made a great analogy. Our house was alot like Gods. Lots of different rooms, and a different appearance for each. BUT all part of the same house~

I'm a Catholic, and darned proud to be one~ I have a Baptist husband, and am equally proud of HIS convictions. Each CHRISTIAN faith is a room in Gods house. We might decorate our rooms different, but we're all still part of that One family. I fail to understand why a brother and sister should argue how the other keeps/decorates their room. Didn't God tell us to focus on keeping our own selves tidy, rather than than on someone else? I'm a Christian, your a Christian.... Is there really anything more that is truly NESSICARY to argue over? (Sure we could nit pick, but is there really a NEED to?)

Why not spend that pent up energy focused on converting those that don't believe in God at all? Or have fallen into a cult that fails to recognize our need for salvation?

[La Enchiladita]

Wonderful post and to Free Republic!!

[Quix]

EXCELLENT POINTS

WONDERFULLY PUT.

WELCOME AND THANKS TONS.

Blessings to you and your bro and families!

[steve86]

Each CHRISTIAN faith is a room in Gods house.

Be careful not to equate Catholicism and other Christian denominations or suggest that they are arbitrary and equivalent choices. That's not how our Church sees it.