Posted on 03/14/2008 10:02:39 AM PDT by ChurtleDawg
Now you seem to be trying to have it both ways.
You show me where I said repentance didn’t exist and I’ll eat my words. You’re trying to put words into my mouth?
bless you in your search for TRUTH
You say in ref to Rom 3:20 and James 2:10
“No contradiction here at all! Paul was talking about the 10 Commandments.”
It’s funny. When I put you on the spot, you don’t answer my questions. We can’t continue with the rest of your post until we settle this critical issue. Now before we can proceed and I answer any of your questions let’s settle this issue. Now, I’ll ask you again. These were my exact words from Post 131.
“Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Here we find the key to understanding what law he is referring to. He is speaking of circumcision by faith. Now why does he mention circumcision? What does that have to do with the 10 commandments? What does circumcision have to do with justification? When you answer those questions, then we can continue.”
The big 10 don’t mention anything about circumcision. Now please answer the questions and not in riddles like you’ve done in the past when I backed you into a corner. In other words, speak simple, logical terms.
Blessings in your desperate search for TRUTH
You say in ref to Rom 3:20 and James 2:10
“No contradiction here at all! Paul was talking about the 10 Commandments.”
It’s funny. When I put you on the spot, you don’t answer my questions. We can’t continue with the rest of your post until we settle this critical issue. Now before we can proceed and I answer any of your questions let’s settle this issue. Now, I’ll ask you again. These were my exact words from Post 131.
“Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Here we find the key to understanding what law he is referring to. He is speaking of circumcision by faith. Now why does he mention circumcision? What does that have to do with the 10 commandments? What does circumcision have to do with justification? When you answer those questions, then we can continue.”
The big 10 don’t mention anything about circumcision. Now please answer the questions and not in riddles like you’ve done in the past when I backed you into a corner. In other words, speak simple, logical terms.
Blessings in your desperate search for TRUTH
Those quotes are your own. As you posted them. I am not defending you on them. Are they your words or not? If you made a mistake, that's fine but you got to own up to it, or explain yourself.
You show me where I said repentance didn’t exist and I’ll eat my words.
I never said that either.
This no KEY. There is no mystery here. Paul is referring to Jews and Gentiles. Circumcision vs. non-circumsized. Circumcision was the outward sign of the promise given to Abraham. Circumcision by faith refers to the inward change to the heart of the believer by which the world would know who had the promise of salvation paid for by Christ. No Law here again. Paul doesn't ever talk about 10 commandment justification because it doesn't exist.
How doesn't this answer your question?
What does circumcision have to do with justification?
Nothing, just like the Law has nothing to do with justification just as Paul writes Rom 3:20; 28.
You say:
How about yourself? Would save some time.
Another one of your off the wall comments “would save some time” that seems to be just pulled out of a hat.
Anyway, I’m a 61 year old non-denominational, non-tithe paying, non participator in Pagan holidays, pure Biblical true commandment keeping (try to keep) Christian.
Bless you in your search for TRUTH
Excellent. Especially the (try to keep), implies the need for a Savior.
Another one of your off the wall comments “would save some time” that seems to be just pulled out of a hat.
Not at all, it helps me figure out your earlier posts regarding the efficacy of the Law for salvation.
You said in response to my saying “the big 10 are perpetual and to be always remembered”,
So Harry, which is it?
I don’t know what is the problem? We’re to remember to always try to keep his commandments because they’re perpetual. Seems like plain and simple English to me. What is your problem? If one forgets or intentionally fails, and “sincerely” repents, the Father, not Yeshua as you say, forgives the transgression. “Go and sin no more” are Yeshua’s words.
Bless you as you search for TRUTH.
You say:
How doesn’t this answer your question?
You answer totally and completely wrong. You, like all the millions of false prophets, miss the whole point of Paul’s teachings and why he talks about the circumcision. Paul was sent to the gentiles specifically to teach them that salvation into the promised land no longer required the physical sign of the circumcision, as the old Testament taught, to be an heir or adopted son. The Jewish Pharasees hated Paul, Yeshua or anyone who preached the salvation through non physical circumcision because they wanted the promises of the land covenant all to themselves. They don’t want to share the inheritance with the dogs. The parable about Lazarus (gentile) and the rich man (Pharisee) demonstrates this same point. So many, like you, just don’t understand the Bible. You preach things that you don’t understand.
You say:
the Law has nothing to do with justification just as Paul writes Rom 3:20; 28.
Again you box yourself into a corner which is nothing new. Are you contradicting James, speaking of the big 10 ?
Jam 2:12 ….they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
It has become very obvious that you are very confused. I guess you think that Paul speaks about circumcision just to hear himself talk or maybe you think he’s perverted or something. Why doesn’t he talk about the heart, or something else concerning the physical anatomy? You obviously are blind to the relationship of circumcision and justification as taught by Paul, which is about most of the New Testament. You need to read and understand the OLD before you try to understand the NEW.
Blessings as you search for TRUTH.
Jesus doesn't forgive sins? C'mon.
Acts 2:37-39 37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.
Acts 10:42-44 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
Did you bother to read it?
It has become very obvious that you are very confused.
And is becoming obvious that you will rely on the Law for your justification. You doubt the sufficiency of God's grace. All I can say is good luck. Have a good evening.
You say:
The Gentiles unless they lived next to Jews would have no knowledge or concern about Jewish customs/law/ordinances. Paul taught Gospel thusly:
You’re totally and completely dead wrong again. The Gentiles in Galatians,etc were made up of the House of Israel dispersed over 800 years before by the Assyrians. You demonstrate very little knowledge of Biblical history. You need to read the Old Testament 1Kings and 2 Kings. Paul even refers to the Corinthians as “brethren” and refers to “our Fathers” back in the time of Moses and the Exodus. The Corinthians were part of the descendants of the 10 tribes that had been dispersed. Paul was talking to his cousins from the 10 lost tribes. Read your whole Bible, not only the verses that suit your agenda.
1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that “all our fathers” were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
You say:
You treat the Bible as if it were a book of puzzles that need solving. …. There is no justification by the Law. ..
The fact is you can’t figure out the puzzle. Can you spell Circumcision? That is part of the puzzle. And yes, James says we are “justified by the Law of Liberty”. James 2 :12. Let me council you, that I have shown you this verse multiple times on this forum and you insist on ignoring it. You’re treading on the lines of disobeyance to the teaching of the Scriptures and even ignoring it. Beware, the judgement day is near and we’ll all have to account for our actions.
You say:
Land covenant, have it. There is only the heavenly kingdom.
You say that and show nothing to verify what you say. To the contrary the Bible teaches the opposite point of view. Here are just a few of the million of Biblical instances of the future Kingdom being on this earth in the promised land of the covenant. Please don’t come back with statements about going to some fantasy heavenly place 20 light years away. Heaven doesn’t necessarily mean that, as I will show after these verses.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and “bring you into the land of Israel”.
Eze 37:22 And I will make them “one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:25 And “they shall dwell in the land” that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for eve
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and “we shall reign on the
earth”.
Heaven, many times, means on earth. That’s why you need to read all in order to understand. A few examples of literal heaven on earth
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Neh 1:9 But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.
You say:
“The curse of the Law is death!”
Did you get that out of the King James version or from the New Xone Version? Show me the verse that says that. Now don’t let me have to remind you to show me the verse. Do you have Alzheimers sometimes?
I still notice how you stay away from the following verse like the plague.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,
Which of the big 10 mentions a curse? You say faith only saves and not keeping the big 10. So with that in mind, show me which of the 10 commandments mentions a curse? Again, don’t forget to answer my question. Not in riddles please.
You say:
Paul talks about the Ten Commandments when talking about salvation and justification.
Dead wrong!! He would be contradicting James. I’ve already made this very Biblically clear. James 2:24 talking about the big 10 says
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Paul in Galatians 2:16 can not possibly be talking about the big 10 when he says
Gal 2:16 ..we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:...
This again is about the 5th time I have to show these biblical passages. Get with the program. You’re still a bit young to be having Alzheimers. Paul, one more time, is talking about the law of ordinances, circumcision, curses, -— are you getting it yet, Ozone, I mean Xone. I hope I don’t have to go buy a tape recording and mail it to you.
You say:
The Jews have had their land returned.
Again you display your ignorance of Scripture. The land covenant didn’t apply only to the Jews. It applied to all 12 tribes. Furthermore, the land of the covenant is not only the current geographical land of Israel but goes form the Nile to the Euphrates. Gen 15:18.
You say:
There isn’t a millenial reign on this Earth.
You contradict the Bible again. Rev 5:10
You say:
Gal 5: 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal 6: 15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Eph 2: 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace Col 2: 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross Isaiah57: 12 I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you
So where in there does he talk about the 10 commandments? Once again you fail to show that. Paul is not, I repeat, is not, I repeat, is not talking about the big 10. The Big 10 does not, I repeat Alzheimer, doesn’t mention curses or circumcision. When will you get it? I know you don’t like the medicine, but I know you handle it.
You say:
“Your works apart from Faith mean nothing”.
Does that verse come from the Xone Version again? Show me the exact verse that says that. Don’t forget, Alzheimer. I want to see the exact verse.
You say:
Like I said good luck with your obedience. I’m sure it has reached the perfection required for justification through the Law.
I hope so too according to:
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are “they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus”.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and “their works do follow them”.
Don’t come back and say that Faith is a work. No where does the Bible teach that as, if I remember correctly, you said in another response. You’ve said so many squirley things. Works are associated only with the different laws relating to curses, circumcision, ordinances , or the Big 10.
You say:
Your comment is a perfect example of this:
1Cor1: 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
What part of my comment are you referring to? I guess you believe that you don’t have freedom of choice. You’re a strange creature, Alzheimer. I’m not Jew. So what if I was? Yeshua was Jewish.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
You post:
“everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
It says through his name. He will judge. Interesting. Why is it then when we pray, we are supposed to pray to the Father. We are are then supposed to end the prayer in the name of Yeshua? I am not sure that is Biblical? I am glad you bring that to my attention. Good point.
Bless you in your search for TRUTH
[The scriptures teach that faith and works are both required. ]
The scriptures teach that faith in the finished work of God’s only begotten son Jesus Christ, who was crucified for OUR sins and rose again the third day, is required for salvation.
The good works of the saved Christian is acceptable to God after salvation is given to the believer of God’s Word and Work by Christ Jesus. This follows salvation and can not precede it as good works can not save those who do not believe God, Christ and His Word. Even if they beleive their church baptism or membership or good works or baptism or holiness movements or sabbath day worship or whatever they believe, the scriptures teach they must believe unto salvation first before the good they do will count. Good works of sinners who believe not are fruitless as the Holy Spirit does not indwell them that seek forgivness without the faith first. Paul states it, James states it, God told them, some beleive, some do not.
I suppose that I should have started this dialogue with whether you use the Apostle’s or Nicene creed in your worship. Do you? If not worshipping in a church environment do they reflect your view?
I’ll grant you that repentance and accepting Jesus can be considered acts of obedience. But I don’t think that’s what our discussion has been about.
If you are now claiming that these minimum “works”, if you call them that, are all that’s necessary for salvation, then we are on the same page.
But if you are claiming that your salvation depends on ongoing works, then you are wrong.
Jesus said the one who loves him would be obedient. He also so said that the one that is forgiven much will love much. And he said that WHOSOEVER believes in him would be forgiven. Notice the order. Faith -> Forgiveness -> Love ->Obedience. It’s not the other way around. And faith doesn’t yield instantaneous obedience or good works.
The faith that saves is not simple belief, but rather it is an obedient faith. In order to be saved, one must not only believe and repent, but they also must confess that Christ is the Son of God and be baptized for the remission of their sins.
If by "simple belief" you mean mental ascent like the demons have who believe Jesus is the Son of God but don't place their trust in him for remission of sins, then yes, it's not that.
But if "simple belief" means asking God for salvation and trusting that God will keep His promises then that's a faith that will save. That faith will save whether or not a person is baptised. But being baptised is the first thing that God commanded us to do, so you would expect that unless there is a medical reason, that any truly repentant person would be baptised.
And if by "Obedient faith" you mean that we need to fear that our salvation will be lost if we don't obey perfectly after accepting Jesus, then no. We need to fear chastisement and the consequences of sin, but not the loss of our eternal salvation that is secure.
Jesus forgiving sins:
Matt 9:
2Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."
Luke 5:
20When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."
Luke 7:
48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
Show me where you are justified by the Law. See #4 below.
“Your works apart from Faith mean nothing”.
Romans 4 Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Romans 4:
5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Romans 11:
5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[a] 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
Ephesians 2:
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Finally:
Romans 9:
31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
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