Posted on 03/14/2008 10:02:39 AM PDT by ChurtleDawg
I have seen many discussions on the theology of Justification and Salvation. Many Protestants, in particular, tend to believe that the soul can be saved through Faith alone, Sola fide, and doing good works plays no part is Salvation. This is reinforced in particular by the books of the New Testament like Romans and Galatians.
Other denominations, such as those in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Restorationist Churches think that one must both be Faithful and do good works. This is supported in particular by the Epistle of James.
here is a list of quotes supporting and opposing the Sola fide doctrine (from wikipedia):
Supporting:
Psalms 84:12: "O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you." Isaiah 64:6: "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. And all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." 2 Chronicles 20:20: "Have faith in the LORD your God and you will be upheld..." Matthew 7:22-23: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" Luke 5:20:"When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." " Luke 18:10-14:"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God." Luke 23:40-43: "But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." " John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 6:28-29: "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'" John 5:24: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 6:40: "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:47: "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life." Acts 10:43: "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved." John 14:6: "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" Acts 26:18: "...that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me..." Romans 1:17-18: "Therefore the just shall live by faith. The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness." Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." Romans 4:5: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." Romans 5:1: "...having been justified by faith..." Romans 10:9: "That if you shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved." Romans 11:6: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Romans 14:23: "...and everything that does not come from faith is sin." Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." Philippians 3:9: "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith." Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:21: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galatians 3:1-3; 9-14; 21-25: "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you; did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? ... So then they who are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Because as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: because it is written, 'Cursed is every one that does not continue in all things that are written in the book of the law to be done'. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, 'The just shall live by faith'. And the law is not of faith: but, 'The man that does them shall live in them'. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree. So that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.... Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, certainly righteousness should have been by the law. But the Scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up from the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, so that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Galatians 3:8: "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith..." Galatians 5:4,5: "Christ has become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." Titus 3:5: "...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit..."
Opposing:
Matthew 5:48 (part of the Expounding of the Law within the Sermon on the Mount): "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (compare Imitatio dei) Matthew 7:21 (part of the Sermon on the Mount): "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:24-27 (part of the Sermon on the Mount): "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." Matthew 12:36-37: "I tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter; For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done." Matthew 19:17: ""Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."" Matthew 24:10-20 (part of the Olivet discourse): "Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 25:31-46 (part of The Sheep and the Goats): "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 28:19-20a (part of the Great Commission): "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Luke 8:21: " But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." Luke 10:25-28: "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."" John 5:29: "And will come out--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." Romans 2:6,7; 13: "For he will repay according to each one's deeds. To those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; for it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified." Romans 2:16: "on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all." Galatians 6:7b-9: "A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up." 1 Corinthians 10:12: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 13:2-3: "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love." 2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil." James 1:22: "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." James 2 (excerpts): "... What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Phillipians 2:12-13: "... work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work." 1 Peter 1:17: "Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning." 1 John 2:3-7: "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard." Revelation 14:12-13: "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labours, for their deeds follow them.’ Revelation 20:13: "All the dead were judged according to their deeds." Revelation 22:12: "Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds
But you claim that lack of obedience disqualifies you, therefore if you are right, then obedience does earn something.
God's terms are repentence and acceptance. God did not make salvation contingent on a person's success at obedience. Jesus paid the price "once for all".
"Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."
‘First, which law are you referring to? Ordinances or 10 commandments?’
In my comment, it is capital ‘L’ as in LAW. I thought it was pretty plain. There are no salvation concerns with ‘ordinances’. The Law is that, the Ten Commandments.
‘If he kept the 10 commanment law for me, then am I free to sin or break the 10 commandment law since he is my advocate?’
Free from the effects of sin? Of course not. You will sin against the LAW and have. If you are a believer and repent, you receive forgiveness for those sins.
‘I’m contending that his death is not a free pass to disregard the law of the 10 commandments but to disregard the curses of the law from which he redeemed us.’
The CURSE (singular)and wage of sin is death. All sin against the LAW. There is but the one set of LAW. In order to escape the payment demanded for sin you have to be sinless. I think we can agree you aren’t. On Judgement Day you will stand before God. If you stand alone, you will pay the required price.
‘This is the part you fail to understand. ‘
No. this is the part that you have created. There is no heavenly LAW apart from the 10 Commandments. The LAW does not justify anyone. No one can stand before God and be judged based on the LAW and get into heaven. NO ONE! Without the atoning work of Christ and the Faith that He authors given freely to all who desire it, you stand alone. As a believer God ‘sees’ Jesus and remembers the sin no more. Only way to salvation and Life is through Jesus.
‘And yes, if you disregard the 10 commandment law’ Romans 6:15
Look I don’t advocate disregarding the LAW. I know it is in force always. I also know that NO ONE ever (save Christ) has kept the LAW.
You have NO works apart from Faith. Your answer from God is “I never knew you.” Faith manifests itself in the believer by changing his behavior to mirror Christ. Your works that count, come about because of your Faith not your humanity.
‘What works are you referring to? You don’t realize that there are 2 types of works.’
Sure.
‘My faith is of my choosing. Yeshua doesn’t choose my faith. ‘
Your best line yet, and the crux of your problem. I wish I could bold it. You try reading this: Hebrews 12:2
“Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God”
Jesus has nothing to do with your faith? Your choosing?
I’ve finally figured out why this has been such a labor. You select your faith, Jesus has nothing to do with it. You and I have irreconcilable differences. I thought I was talking to a Christian. No wonder you are fixated on the LAW. You deny Christ’s atoning work. You have to have another way. One which sadly only leads towards your damnation.
’ Just because you have an advocate with the Father is no license to disregard his commandments.’
An advocate with the Father? Jesus,Creator, Redeemer, an advocate? John 10:30
You really need to pray to God in the name of His Son Jesus to have the Holy Spirit guide you as you read the passages I provided you. You’re in trouble son, you need God’s guidance. You need to accept the sovereign nature of the LORD Jesus. Look up the word ‘Lord’ and consider the implications of your stance.
In context. It's clear that that David had not ascended to Heaven at the time he made his comments about "The Lord said unto my Lord.." And that since David's body was still available in the grave, it's clear that David's prophecy about "his body would not see decay" was about someone other than David.
David's body did not ascend, but since David is mentioned in the hall of faith, Hebrews 11, which says v40 that they would be made perfect with us. And since scripture is clear that to be absent the body is to be present with Christ, it's clear that David is with Christ.
Acts 2: 29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." '[g] 36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Heb 11:40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
‘David is buried and dead in his sepulcre. No, he is not in any heaven a billion light years away.’
How about Moses? Is he in heaven?
Elijah?
Abraham?
Enoch?
Peter?
Paul?
I’m trying to figure out where you are.
Your logic is flawed. Just because one must be obedient to accept salvation, does not imply that obedience earns salvation. As I stated, it is the way in which we accept salvation, and the terms are set forth by God. One does not earn something by complying with the terms of acceptance set forth by the one offering.
Also, you claim that obedience is not necessary, and yet still claim that repentance is necessary, which requires obedience. We are commanded to repent of our sins, and by doing so, we are being obedient to the commands of God. If one does not repent, they are being disobedient.
How about Moses? Is he in heaven?
Elijah?
Abraham?
Enoch?
Peter?
Paul?
I’m trying to figure out where you are.
I use the Bible to prove what I say. What are you using?
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
The Scriptures that the God of Israel is the author of plainly state that one who is born after the Ressurection of Jesus Christ from the dead to everlasting life must be saved by faith alone in the finished WorK of Gods Christ at Calvary.
This simply means that good works of sinners is not acceptable to God because the person who does good works is a sinner and all good works, though good, can not pay for sin no matter how many good works are done. We are condemned from our birth day because we are sinners from our nativity, born in sin, speaking lies from the womb, and all the high faluting good works we do simply can not pay for our sin.
But God sent Jesus the Christ who did no sin to become our sin sacrife on the bloody tree of Calvary and who overcame sin and death and the grave when he overcame the devil on ressurection of HIS Body from the dead. From this point on and until the rapture, God has saved people by grace through faith in the Son of God and purposely forgives sins past, present and future the moment they believe how Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again the third day for our salvation. God meets sinners in their sin and justifies the ungodly when they believe Him and Christ Jesus, forgives them, and begins the santification of the saved soul the moment He indwells each believer of Christ and God Word as truth. Then our good works count for the gifts God will bestow upon us,or not, at the bema seat of Christ Jesus which preceeds the White Throne judgement by 1000 years. God sent Paul the Apostle to preach the gospel of salvation by the Grace of God in the Faith of Christ and began the body of Christ, bible believing Christians, saved souls, until the rapture preceeding the 7 year tribulations preceeding the return of Christ to be King of Israel and of all the earth for 1000 years.
The doctrine of salvation is clearly stated in the 4 Pauline epistles given to Paul, a saved sinner as we are, and endures to the end of the age of the body of Christ, the rapture, and the beginning of the next age, also known as the Kingdom age of Jesus Christ on the earth. Only the Apostle Paul was given the gospel of salvation for the Jew and Gentile Body of Christ, though God used the Apostle Peter in the house of Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11 to begin the age of grace.
I wish all who say they are Christians would beleive the Doctrine of Christ Jesus that they may be saved by grace through faith and then be able to do the good works God would have us to do by His Indwelling HOLY Spirit, the third person of the trinity of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spitit. Good works can not save a person because no child of Adam and Eve is able to overcome the sin debt we owe God but by His grace throught the finished work of Christ Jesus only.
Ephesians 1
1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16. Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
[‘David is buried and dead in his sepulcre. No, he is not in any heaven a billion light years away.’
How about Moses? Is he in heaven?]
The Scriputes of God teach us that no sinner could come to God the Father until the unblemished sinless Son of God made Sin payment for us in HIS Blood and therefore the old testament saints though saved did not enter God the Father’s presence before Christ Jesus, the First fruit of God presented His own sinless blood as our atonement for sins. Therefore we see through the scriptures that the place called Paradise by Jesus was actually a HOLDing place for the saved of the old testament( who will receive their glorified bodies with us at the rapture of the Christian bible believing church as Paul the Apostle taught by the reveliations of Jesus Christ (Galations 2 and Thessolonians and I Corinthians 15 and other scriptures, whom Christ took up to the heavenlies after His ressurection on the Third Day, Himself being the First Man and God the Son who is now saviour of the Jew and Gentile Body of Christ, the saved by grace through faith only in the work of the son of God , Christ Jesus, until God makes all Christ enemies His footstool. This of course is the coming Kingdom Age when Christ will literally rule over the Whole Earth from God’s Zion, Israel the nation and Christ Jesus our Prophet,Prist (Saviour) and King.
Search the Scriptures for answers and pay heed to the prophecy of Scripture lest you wind up actually standing against the Work God is doing in causing Israel to be the burdensome stone He will use to destroy all false religions and atheist secular humanism on the hill of Meggideo when the nations of the world will literally fight against Gods Christ as they try to destroy Gods Israel. We have the bible prophecy.
‘How about Moses? Is he in heaven?
Elijah?
Abraham?
Enoch?
Peter?
Paul?
I’m trying to figure out where you are.’
So no answer for such an easy test? Six questions. The answer is the same for all of them, so at best you have to type 2 letters at the worst 3. Pretty simple.
‘I use the Bible to prove what I say’
Good, use it here.
‘We have the bible prophecy.’
‘Paradise by Jesus was actually a HOLDing place for the saved of the old testament( who will receive their glorified bodies with us at the rapture of the Christian bible believing church ‘
Then in Matt 17:1-3, who were these fellows with Jesus during His Transfiguration? Plainly they were recognized as Moses and Elijah so they had to have some form. Where did they get it? By the way, Moses transgressed the Ten Commandments by murdering the overseer. How did he get to heaven?
You ask:
How about in Romans 3:20? Do you contend he is speaking of ‘man-made’ law there? We are made concious of sin through the law, sure sounds like he means the LAW as in the 10 Commandments.
There are several things here we need to analyze in order to get to the real gist of what he is saying. First and foremost, we know that the Bible does not contradict itself. If Paul was speaking about the 10 commandments in
Romans 3:20 …. by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight…”
Then he would contradicting James who speaks of the 10 commandments in
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
From studying the above verses, it is obvious that Paul is not talking about the 10 commandments. It becomes even more obvious if you read a bit more the context in
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Here we find the key to understanding what law he is referring to. He is speaking of circumcision by faith. Now why does he mention circumcision? What does that have to do with the 10 commandments? What does circumcision have to do with justification? When you answer those questions, then we can continue.
You say:
Do you contend that Moses and David are not in the kingdom? The same Moses who appeared with Christ in during his Transfiguration. Through repentance, we are forgiven our sins. A rather foolish question. Beside the Triune God and His angels, who do you think is in heaven?
The kingdom has not arrived on earth yet. Do you see a King in the land of the covenant?
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
David is buried and dead in his sepulcre. No, he is not in any heaven a billion light years away.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
You say:
There are no salvation concerns with ‘ordinances’. The Law is that, the Ten Commandments.
I’ll reiterate again the point I made before. You don’t understand what laws refer to faith and grace and the land covenant. There are no curses written in the big 10. Yet Paul isn’t talking about the big 10 in Galatians. I notice you stay away from verses like
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Read it again. It says “curse of the law”. Those are the curses of Deut. 28:15 which relate to the land covenant that you don’t understand. I know you probably won’t post back on this issue. If you do, you’ll talk in riddles. You don’t understand what the word “salvation” means is very clear.
If there are no salvation concerns with ordinances, then why does Luke mention them (righteous)
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Why does Paul talk about keeping ordinances in 1Corinthians, one of your favorite books? It seems you select verses that fit your agenda. Why don’t you read and select the whole Bible?
1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
There are a million more versesthat are similar. You don’t understand the Promises of the Abrahamic pact and how the ordinances relate to faith and grace. That’s why you get the big 10 and faith and grace all mixed up and get all entangled as you’ve demonstrated.
You say:
“No one can stand before God and be judged based on the LAW and get into heaven. NO ONE!”
I know you don’t like James cause he upsets your applecart but it’s pretty clear in James that he is talking about the big 10 and when he clearly says you will be judged by the big 10 called the law of liberty or the royal law when he says:
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
You say:
“Without the atoning work of Christ and the Faith that He authors given freely to all who desire it, you stand alone.”
We’ll see who stands alone on judgement day when he asks you why didn’t you keep and teach to others to keep my 7th day sabbath holy? Why did you teach that “only faith saves” when James says very clearly that faith without works, referring to the big 10, is dead?
You believe:
“As a believer God ‘sees’ Jesus and remembers the sin no more.”
You say Hashem remembers sin no more? The Sabbath all the big 10 are perpetual and to be always remembered. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy …… There’ll be grinding of the teeth when he asks you, “Did you remember to keep my Sabbath to keep it holy or did you disobey and do work, maybe even for compensation as the time when they were buying and selling in the temple when I flipped the tables over in my anger?
You say:
Look I don’t advocate disregarding the LAW. I know it is in force always. I also know that NO ONE ever (save Christ) has kept the LAW.
But you teach only faith can save you. True, we have all sinned and transgressed the law. But that doesn’t mean that we should not strive to please Hashem by constantly trying to obey and love him. “If you love me, keep my commandments.”
You say:
“You have NO works apart from Faith.”
You have your terms a bit mixed up. Faith is not a work. Faith is a belief. Works refers to keeping the law. Again read the example in James 2:10-17, even though it goes against your grain.
You say;
“Your works that count, come about because of your Faith not your humanity.”
Exactly. Because we believe, we should strive to please him by showing our love for him. “If you love me, keep my commandments. He who says he loves me and doesn’t keep my commandments is a liar.”
You say “sure” that you don’t realize that there are 2 types of works. I’ll explain in reference to Scripture. Paul in 99% of the cases in Galatians, Corinthians, Romans, Hebrews, etc mentions or refers to the works of the circumcision. Why the circumcision? Because it was a sign (Gen 17:10,11) for the heirs of the Abrahamic land covenant. Yeshua’s death was to redeem the the descendants of those who lost the inheritance, due to idolatrous commandment breaking, in 721 BC (10 tribes – house of Israel) and later in 70 AD (2 tribes – House of Judah). They were subject to the “curse of the law” Deut. 28:15-25. In Gal 3:13 his death redeemed their descendants from this curse of the law, so they could return to their lost inheritance of the Abrahamic promise or covenant. That is what the meaning of faith is. That we should believe (faith) that his death wiped away the sins of the ancestors so that the heirs (now mixed with the gentiles after 2700 years in exile) could return to the promised land covenant. No more need for the ordinance of the physical circumcision. That is what faith and grace are all about. If you don’t understand this, then you really don’t understand faith and grace.
The other works relate to the 10 commandments. It’s pretty obvious that we should strive to keep them, even though we may stumble occasionally. The Old and New Testaments are full of verses, as I’ve plainly shown, that advocate keeping the big 10.
You say:
“Your best line yet, and the crux of your problem. I wish I could bold it. You try reading this: Hebrews 12:2”
In Hebrew 12:2 he is talking to a crowd who believed in Yeshua as redeemer. He definitely wasn’t talking to the Pharisees, Idumites, Edomites, or Ishmaelites or plain atheist, etc who definitely didn’t have faith in Yeshua’s resurrection and redeeming power of restoring the lost covenant, of which they had no inheritance, other than the Pharisees. So yes, faith is the choosing of an individual. You make it sound like the whole world has faith in Yeshua’s resurrection and redeeming of true Christians from the curse of the law which our forefathers were under and subjected to through the loss of the land covenant because of idolatry. Notice I said true Christians. True Christians strive to keep Hashems laws of love and remember his appointed feast days. Not Constantine’s Pagan Sunday, and easter rabbits and eggs on Pagan passover Sunday. I could talk about this for hours.
You say:
“You select your faith, Jesus has nothing to do with it.”
That’s right. And if you’re foolish enough to believe that Hashem doesn’t give everyone freedom of choice then you probably about as sharp as a marble. You have made this such a ridiculous conversation. How old are you anyway? And yes I have another way than yours. It’s called obey. True Christians show love for their Creator by sincerely striving to obey his commandments. Even though we fail at times, he accepts sincere repentance and mercifully forgives and forgets. These are works of the big 10 which demonstrate ones faith and are of ones own choice.
You responded:
An advocate with the Father? Jesus,Creator, Redeemer, an advocate? John 10:30
You really need to pray to God in the name of His Son Jesus to have the Holy Spirit guide you as you read the passages I provided you. You’re in trouble son, you need God’s guidance. You need to accept the sovereign nature of the LORD Jesus. Look up the word ‘Lord’ and consider the implications of your stance.
Your response is really a non-response. John 10:30 or as far as that goes, nothing you said answers the part about “no license to disregard his commandments.” I guess you just don’t have a reponse.
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
I use the Biblical example of David not being anywhere but buried in his sepulcre. Job also says he’s sleeping in the grave until his change comes after the wrath. Not before, as many try to proclaim in the false rapture theory. There was Enoch who was translated. He was an exception. The Bible isn’t real clear on any of the others. For the most part, the bible has a million verses that speak about death as sleep. Soul dies at death. On and on. I don’t want to get off the topic. Start a new topic if you want to talk about death. I’m trying to obey forum rules.
Bless you in your search for TRUTH
You say:
‘Paradise by Jesus was actually a HOLDing place for the saved of the old testament( who will receive their glorified bodies with us at the rapture of the Christian bible believing church ‘
That is no where to be found in the Bible.
You say:
Then in Matt 17:1-3, who were these fellows with Jesus during His Transfiguration? Plainly they were recognized as Moses and Elijah so they had to have some form. Where did they get it? By the way, Moses transgressed the Ten Commandments by murdering the overseer. How did he get to heaven?
Yeshua gave them form and life the same as he gave Lazarus when he resurrected him after 4 days buried and beginning to decompose. Moses as well as Josua, David who killed Goliath, and the list goes on about people who killed others in battle, and you name it. Maybe Moses repented later. The commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, does not refer to war, or self defense. I don’t know all the exceptions cause I’m not a member of the Sanhedrin who interpret all the Laws. Maybe you should direct your question to a Jewish Rabbi. They are the experts in the law, since Hashem has assigned them that task.
Bless you in your search for TRUTH
No, Kindred said that @#128. I disagree.
The commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, does not refer to war, or self defense.
Thanks for the obvious. That question was to refute your contention that the Ten Commandments can't be abridged and a person saved. Heaven would be for God and his angels alone.
As I said, I wanted to see where you are. Now I know.
No contradiction here at all! Paul was talking about the 10 Commandments. Why wouldn't he? Paul preached to the Gentiles. The Gentiles unless they lived next to Jews would have no knowledge or concern about Jewish customs/law/ordinances. Paul taught Gospel thusly:
1Cor1: 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
There are several things here we need to analyze in order
The statements are plain. You treat the Bible as if it were a book of puzzles that need solving. Doing so results in saying there are apparent contradiction between Paul and James vs. the Law. James agrees with Paul: There is no justification by the Law. Christ Crucified!
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Here we find the key to understanding what law he is referring to. He is speaking of circumcision by faith. Now why does he mention circumcision? What does that have to do with the 10 commandments? What does circumcision have to do with justification? When you answer those questions, then we can continue.
This no KEY. There is no mystery here. Paul is referring to Jews and Gentiles. Circumcision vs. non-circumsized. Circumcision was the outward sign of the promise given to Abraham. Circumcision by faith refers to the inward change to the heart of the believer by which the world would know who had the promise of salvation paid for by Christ. No Law here again. Paul doesn't ever talk about 10 commandment justification because it doesn't exist.
I’ll reiterate again the point I made before. You don’t understand what laws refer to faith and grace and the land covenant.
Land covenant, have it. There is only the heavenly kingdom. While there will be an Antichrist, when Christ returns, that will be the end of it. No Rapture prior, the dead raised, judgement, eternity.
There are no curses written in the big 10. Yet Paul isn’t talking about the big 10 in Galatians. I notice you stay away from verses like
The curse of the Law is death! Pretty big one. Paul talks about the Ten Commandments when talking about salvation and justification. Paul taught Gentile predominately. They nor I nor Christ cared about man-made laws. None of the Gentiles would know what the hell he was talking about.
Those are the curses of Deut. 28:15 which relate to the land covenant that you don’t understand. I know you probably won’t post back on this issue. If you do, you’ll talk in riddles.
Hows this for non riddling? The Jews have had their land returned. There isn't a millenial reign on this Earth. Isaiah 66 22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure.
There are a million more versesthat are similar. You don’t understand the Promises of the Abrahamic pact and how the ordinances relate to faith and grace. That’s why you get the big 10 and faith and grace all mixed up and get all entangled as you’ve demonstrated.
Your ordinances et al.:
Gal 5: 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal 6: 15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Eph 2: 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace Col 2: 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross Isaiah57: 12 I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you
You have your terms a bit mixed up. Faith is not a work. Faith is a belief. Works refers to keeping the law. Again read the example in James 2:10-17, even though it goes against your grain.
Read again. Your works apart from Faith mean nothing. That doesn't say Faith is a work,it says that the works done without Faith are worthless. You could agree that occasionally the unsaved do good works? What does it avail them? Faith allows you to do the works God has set before you.
You say Hashem remembers sin no more?
I said at the Judgement of a believer, God will see Christ and His atoning work and remember the sins of the believer no more.
Isaiah 43: 25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.
We’ll see who stands alone on judgement day
Like I said good luck with your obedience. I'm sure it has reached the perfection required for justification through the Law.
That’s right. And if you’re foolish enough to believe that Hashem doesn’t give everyone freedom of choice then you probably about as sharp as a marble. You have made this such a ridiculous conversation. How old are you anyway? And yes I have another way than yours. It’s called obey.
Are you Jewish?
Your comment is a perfect example of this:
1Cor1: 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
And really squares with this:
Blessings in your search for TRUTH
You are confusing cause and effect. Repentance is the cause and obedience is the effect. But it’s not a perfect link. Repentance is required. Repentance is agreeing with the Lord that you have sinned, recognizing that you need a savior, accepting God’s provision of a savior and being willing to turn from your sin.
Being willing to turn (repentance) and actually turning (obedience) are two different things.
I’ll give you an example. My grandfather was an alcoholic when he accepted Christ. Every weekend he would go out with his friends and get drunk. It was bad enough that my grandmother would store sleeping bags underneath the house so that when he locked them out and passed out, they would have something to sleep in.
He accepted Christ but for 9 months after that, he continued to go out with his friends, and invariably he would get drunk. Eventually the Lord persuaded him that he was going to have to change friends, and he did. The obedience wasn’t immediate, but the repentance and the salvation was immediate.
We start out as babes and we grow into mature Christians as the fruit of the spirit develops in our lives. And that takes time.
Someone who has no desire to change, who feels no conflict when they sin, and no desire to serve the Lord may not have ever really been repentant. And that’s what James is warning his congregation about.
But someone who has been repentant and asked for salvation is saved, “perfected forever”, “has passed from judgement to life”, “has eternal life” even though the Spirit has not yet fully wrought the changes necessary in their lives to perform works and avoid sin.
I was just thinking the same thing about you! I'm 51 white Lutheran. How about yourself? Would save some time.
Danny,
No matter how you try to couch the terms, repentance is still an act of obedience. It is still something that you must do in order to be saved.
Jason
Even though we fail at times, he accepts sincere repentance and mercifully forgives and forgets
So Harry, which is it?
I said'“As a believer God ‘sees’ Jesus and remembers the sin no more.”'
Isaiah said it: Isaiah 43: 25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.
Now you seem to be trying to have it both ways.
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