The vestments worn at Mariazell Austria were not only garish but an improper liturgical color - blue.
Posted on 02/19/2008 5:49:25 AM PST by NYer
Paolo Rodari of Il riformista has an interesting piece about the Pope reaction to a question put to him during his recent meeting with the clergy of Rome. The question was about the problem of the huge outdoor Masses which became a norm during the pontificate of John Paul II.
Here is Rodari’s piece, in my translation, with my emphases and comments.
That the papal liturgies are changing enormously, also thanks to the arrival of the Pope’s new Master of Ceremonies, the Ligurian of the [late Card.] Siri school, Msgr. Guido Marini, is something well-known. Behind Marini, of course, is the Pope, for whom the liturgy of all time is to be celebrated in a new way (which as a matter of fact hasn’t been done for a long time), that is, faithfully following the rules – regardless of ‘old’ or new’ Missal – so as to offer a dignified whole that is respectful of what is taking place.
As a case in point, the Pontiff spoke about this a few days ago (7 Feb) in the traditional and purposely spontaneous parry and riposte which, as happens every year at the beginning of Lent, takes place behind closed doors between him and the priests and deacons of Rome.
Among the ten questions presented to Ratzinger, one was dedicated to Masses celebrated with huge crowds, those which – to be clear – more and more became the established practice during the pontificate of John Paul II. Those which, still, for logistical reasons are for example ever more frequent for spiritual retreats and large ecclesial movements.
The Pope listened in silence to the question offered to him, responded, and then in the following days, made an important decision about it.
But let’s be orderly. The question put to the Pontiff was unimpeachable in its formulation and went like this: "How do we reconcile the treasure of the liturgy in all its solemnity and with the sentiment, emotion and excitment of masses of young people called to participate in it?" Benedict XVI responded immediately that, in effect, there is a problem: "Liturgy in which masses of people participate", he said, "is a big problem."
[This part is fascinating.] The Pope recalled that everything began with a question presented in 1960 during a large International Eucharistic Congress at Munich, about how there could be the celebration of the Eucharist also at such events. To adore, it was said at Munich, can be done also at a distance, but to celebrate a limited community is necessary which can interact with the mystery. At Munich many expressed negative opinions regarding the hypothesis of celebrations of the Eucharist in the open, even with one hundred thousand people or more. But it was the Austrian liturgist Josef Andreas Jungmann, one of the architects of the liturgical reform, who created "the concept of ‘statio orbis‘" and thus legitimated celebrations as vast as oceans: in substance, if there exists the "statio Romae", and thus the place where the faithful gather to then go together to the Eucharist, so then there can exist also (and this is the case with Eucharistic Congresses), a "statio orbis", the gathering place of the world. [And some critics of Pope Benedict’s liturgical decisions have made the dopey comment that he isn’t a "trained liturgist". But he knew this and had it at the tip of his tongue during a Q&A.]
It is thanks to Jungmann, therefore, that today there are large Mass celebrations. Even so, for Ratzinger, these represent a problem for which a definitive response – as he said himself on 7 February last – "has not yet been found" also because, "if there concelebrate, for example, a thousand priests, you don’t know if this is the structure the Lord wanted." [KABOOM! This is the key. Pope Ratzinger fishes the whole question out of the soup of pragmatism and brings it back to Christ’s will. As Pope, Benedict must concern himself primarily with what God wills before he makes practical decisions. So, the question is no on the floor: are these mass Masses a good response to the reality of large crowds who want to be with the Pope? Should Communion and concelebration, perhaps, be more limited?]
In the meantime, the Pope said, there is needed at least to find "a certain style to preserve the dignity that is always necessary for the Eucharist." [Well… they haven’t done a very good job so far.] In the last large mass celebrations at which Ratzinger participated, for example at the recent gathering at Loreto, all these problems with these celebrations were present and the situation, he said, "didn’t depend on me, but rather on those who were tasked with the preparation".
And so, there is the solution, for now only partial, but nevertheless necessary, in view of the upcoming ocean-sized Masses: for two occasions on the apostolic visit to the United States (on 17 April in the new Nationals Park and 20 April at Yankee Stadium in New York) and those foreseen for World Youth Day in Sydney. In the USA and Australia, the Pope decided not to delegate any longer the organization of celebrations to third parties. And so he asked that, in the next days, that his Master of Ceremonies, Msgr. Guido Marini, should fly across the oceans (both the Pacific and Atlantic) with the precise task of studying the locations to be used for the liturgical functions with the end of taking on direct responsibility for carrying out celebrations in those spaces; that the result might be Masses that are as vast as oceans, but at least characterized as much as possible with composure and discipline.
That one I’ve heard — but not lately. Of course, I go to the 8:00 on Sunday, which almost never has music (or whatever!).
Italian journalists used to often refer to PJP as Pope Wojtyla, without sarcasm.
He sure did play gorgeous music for Ash Wednesday - a Bach prelude, Faure' and an anonymous Renaissance piece during the service, and a Louis Vierne postlude.
LOL! Things have sunk so low that for a moment I almost believed it...
I bet they will, and I especially hope there’s a touch of Latin, at least. In any case, if the Pope’s personal representative if flying over to check it out first, I doubt that the music is going to be the St. Louise Jesuits. (Ooops, Freudian slip...I think I’ll just let it stand though, becuase it’s a pretty good one!)
I think BXVI actually is somewhat concerned by those masses; I have heard that people are somewhat irreverent at those, too. But I think he’s really directing his attention to the big “special event” masses, because he has had a couple that have obviously not been to his liking. (Remember the weird vestments in Germany? And I believe there was a horrid dance/rock band moment at one of his earliest youth gatherings.)
In addition, Benedict is very modest and doesn’t like the super-star treatment that JPII seemed to enjoy. I saw him at an audience about a year ago, and people (twice as many as the crowd JPII used to gather) were standing on their chairs, clapping and calling to him as he left. He waved modestly, but he was obviously embarrassed and did not like that kind of attention. Personally, I think he’s right; after all, the Church is not all about the individual who’s Pope at a particular moment, and I think he really feels very humbled by his office.
One of the blogs mentioned that the Gloria and Sanctus of the Mass in Yankee Stadium will be from one of Tomas Luis de Victoria’s Masses.
We receive the music early in March - I’ll post what it is then.
Congratulations on being selected to sing for His Holiness! What an honor.
A great problem, however, is that of the liturgies in which masses of people participate. I remember in 1960, during the great International Eucharistic Congress of Munich, there was an endeavour to give a new physiognomy to the eucharistic congresses, which up to that point had solely been acts of adoration. The intent was to put the celebration of the Eucharist at the centre as the act of presence of the mystery being celebrated. But immediately the question arose how that would be possible. To adore, it was said, is possible also at a distance; but to celebrate, a limited community is necessary which can interact with the mystery, therefore a community which must be the assembly around the celebration of the mystery. Many were opposed to the public celebration of the Eucharist with hundreds of thousands of people. They said it was not possible precisely because of the very structure of the Eucharist, which requires the community for the communion. There were also great personalities, very much respected, who objected to this solution. Then professor Jungmann, a great liturgist, one of the great architects of the liturgical reform, created the concept of statio orbis, namely reverting to the statio Romae where even in the time of Lent the faithful assembled at a point, the statio: there they are in statio as soldiers for Christ, and then they go together to the Eucharist. If that, he said, was the statio of the city of Rome, where the city of Rome came together, then this is the statio orbis [statio of the world]. And from that moment on we have the eucharistic celebrations with the participation of masses. To me, I must say, this remains a problem, because the concrete communion in the celebration is fundamental, and therefore I do not find that the definitive answer has been found. Also in the last Synod [of Bishops on the Eucharist, in 2005] I have made this question emerge, which has not, however, found an answer. I have also made another question be raised, regarding concelebrations en masse: because if there are concelebrating, e.g., a thousand priests, one does not know if this is still the structure willed by the Lord. In any case, these are questions.And so, you encountered a problem with participating in an en masse celebration in which it is not possible for everyone to be equally involved. Therefore, one must choose a certain style to preserve that dignity that is always necessary for the Eucharist, and hence the community is not uniform and the experience of participation in the event is diverse; for some it is certainly insufficient. But this did not depend on me; rather on those who have taken care of the preparations.
Hence it must be reflected well on what to do in such situations, how to respond to the challenges of such situations. In Loreto, if I am not mistaken, it was an orchestra of handicapped people who performed the music, and perhaps the idea was just to demonstrate that handicapped persons can contribute to the sacred celebration, in which not only are they not excluded but become primary agents. And this way, loving them, everyone does not feel excluded, but even involved. This seems to me a very respectable consideration which I share. Of course, the fundamental problem [of en masse celebrations] remains.
But it seems to me that also in this regard, knowing what the Eucharist is, even if one does not have the opportunity of an external activity as one might wish in order to feel one is fully participating, we should be in it with the heart, as the ancient imperative of the Church says, created perhaps precisely for those who were at the back of the basilica: "Lift up your hearts! Now, let us all go out of ourselves, so that we all are with the Lord and are together."
As I said, I don't deny the problem, but if we really follow this word "Lift up our hearts", we will all find, even in difficult and sometimes questionable situations, true and active participation.
Victoria! I’m ecstatic! I hope music directors all over the country sit up and take notice of this.
Congratulations! Look forward to seeing you on television :-)
Probably.
The vestments worn at Mariazell Austria were not only garish but an improper liturgical color - blue.
Thanks very much, NYer.
Thanks very much, ELS.
Yes there is! But the problem is not where they preach, it's what they preach!
In Christ...Alone!
Christ's feeding of the five-thousand is the closest biblical event that I can think of that could shed some light on this, as it was a proto-Eucharistic celebration. That's all I have. Maybe someone else can build on it.
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