Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
I construe it as a rather mysterious verse in view of a lot fo things. I do not construe it as something that one ought to be the elast bit comprehensively dogmatic about given a number of puzzling aspects about it vis a vis the whole counsel of the whole of Scripture.
However, FWIW, I have persietently felt that God has quickened to me a couple of things vis a vis this verse . . .
1. He IS looking for Biblical 'excuse' to save people and NOT Biblical 'excuse' to damn them. HIS MERCY DOES triumph over even His justice.
2. ALL AUTHENTIC BELIEVERS--in confessed up, repented up, right-standing with God--have the capaity IN SOME MYSTERIOUS SENSE AND IN SOME CONTEXTS, CONTINGENCIES--to pronounce forgiveness over others which God will pay attention to.
What precisely God will do in each case is clearly up to God and certainly will somehow, on balance, be consistent with the rest of Scripture in whatever way Scripture's Author dictates. HE IS, after all, God, and we are not.
We also know that vis a vis folks who have injured, offended, angered . . . us . . . we are OBLIGATED, ORDERED, COMMANDED BEFORE GOD--TO FORGIVE THEM WHOLESALE
Now, it's quite plausible, that virtually all other FR rel forum FREEPERS need less forgiveness than I do. However, I, personally, need to insure that I forgive EVERYONE IMMEDIATELY, ROUTINELY, THOROUGHLY, as fully from the heart as I'm able and asking God to make it complete in my inner man.
But we can see in that part of The Lord's Prayer . . . a very important priority that God places on our forgiving others IN GENERAL. Add in that HIS MERCY triumphs over His judgment . . . It seems rather Scripturally true to me, that my inner sense from Holy Spirit, that God is looking for Biblical reasons to save people vs damn people is quite plausible, true.
IN ANY CASE, I PRONOUNCE FORGIVENESS for all their sins--past, present, future--OVER OTHERS AS PROMPTED BY HOLY SPIRIT. And, I have utter confidence that God will do whatever REDEMPTIVE whatevers HE WISHES TO DO--based on such a prayer and pronouncement of forgiveness. And, that in eternity, I'll see some surprising results that are likely to shock even me.
As a Protty Pentecostal, I have no great hooks to hang the following on . . . but in keeping with the above, I've often felt prompted to even pray forgiveness over others in a couple of ways and contexts that still somewhat puzzle me or mystify me. Yet, I'm rather reluctant to argue with what has been so consistently confirmed as a remarkably consistent sensing in my spirit by Holy Spirit.
1. When there's been a suicide . . . or other untimely death . . . I will pray such a pronouncement of forgiveness, IF, I feel the slightest release to do so, in my spirit. I ask God to effect whatever redemptive anything He 'legally' can and will via such a prayer. Interestingly, we do know of quite a number of cases of folks dying, being in hell, crying out to Jesus, and being delivered out of hell as they later relate after their 'NDE.' It is PLAUSIBLE to me that such prayers of forgivness might have a part in such situations.
2. When I'm concerned or someone I know is concerned about an ailing loved one etc., I will pray a pronouncement of forgiveness and ask God to present Jesus to the individual forcefully, even, if necessary, at the moment of death. Thankfully, on the latter score, there are a host of annecdotal cases where God has done just that--such that my faith on that score is stronger than with number 1. just above.
CERTAINLY God is God and can do whatever He wishes to do vis a vis reality . . . consistent with His Word and Nature.
GOD HIMSELF HAS CHOSEN, CONDESCENDED, to INVOLVE US in this great drama via prayer. Some folks [e.g. Hagin et al] go so far as to contend that God has placed The Church Universal in charge of this planet and limits His own parameters TO SOME DEGREE, in many cases [some would say all] according to our prayers.
Thankfully, millions of folks praying YOUR WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN gives him rather carte blanche anyway.
Regardless, I'm going to go on praying/pronouncing forgiveness over anyone whom Holy Spirit prompts me to pray thusly over. What, if anything, God does with such a prayer is obviously thoroughly up to Him. But I'm not going to miss an opportunity to extend what I need, so routinely, to others who may be even more clueless than I about their own need of such.
Life is complex. Mysteries abound in the spiritual realm as well as others. I certainly would rather err on the side of 'excessive forgiveness' and let God sort out the details than to arrive in eternity and realize I could have been more redemptive than I was in such matters.
Just imho, of course.
Ok, let the bashings and flame assaults begin--if God so instructs you! LOL.
Good points.
I suppose one could get into the old philisophical bugaboo about God’s “permissive” vs “absolute’ will . . .
But then, I guess Calvinists only believe that God has His UNALTERABLE STATIC ABSOLUTE WILL.
And, I don’t really enjoy such pontifications and hair splittings about things which I believe we have too little information on to be dogmatic about.
Ah, there it is. Thank you so much, and for the one from Pink. I've copied them both now. Simply from the perspective of logic, the Apostolic idea of predestination appears to be meaningless (God as stenographer). Even if I wasn't biased, this one would still never make sense to me.
I think it's a dialectical impasse.
I would be interested din hearing what you think the "image of God" in humanity is.
That's curious. Where does John say that? His Gospel is the only one that doesn't mention anything about Jesus being asked if He is the Son of God. The previous three Gospels do, and only one (Mark 14:62) "quotes" Jesus as saying "Yes I am." The other two "quote" Him as saying "You said it" (Mat 26:64) and "You say that I am" (Luke (22:70).
Of these thour Matthew and John were witnesses. Their testimony does not match. For being such an important question, John, doesn't even mention it.
But "Son of God" in Judaism never meant "equivalent with God" as you claim. It was a title given to angels and kings. And messiah (mesiyah in Hebrew or christos in Greek, which means anointed) would certainly have that title, being a favorite of God, but "equivalent with God." Why would God pray to God? Why would God have Himself tempted?
Now I’m sure we can expect you to respond with some atheistic Bible criticism claiming that was not the case
To you, it seems, anything that doesn't agree with "official truth" is "atheist Bible criticism." Do you believe that bats are birds? The bible says they are. It must be true. It's in the bible.
Hubby, who was a Catholic until he was born again, said that was one thing that always worried him, that God would withdraw His grace through sinning. When he accepted Christ into his life and discovered that God’s grace was always there and he didn’t have to fear going to hell because he sinned, it was a huge weight taken off this shoulders. Now he knows that when he sins, he can go to the Father and ask for forgiveness and he is restored. Grace doesn’t bop in and out.
The pronouncement of forgiveness is an interesting angle that I’ve never heard before. Hmm.
The Bible says we will be judged for our deeds. The Portestants deny it. That's fine with me. But the fundamental message throughout the whoe Bible, Old or New Testament, is not a free ride, but repentance that's required for forgiveness. Not one time repentance, but repentance, period. Repentance is not just saying I am sorry.
Protestantism is a feel-good religon. Man-made, for and by men (and women of coruse). It is tailored to make everyone feel snug and safe no matter what they do. It appeals to our fallen nature. It is a deception, and the root of deception is known to all of us.
Knowing of something is not knowing it. You may have heard of something, and you know that it exists, but you have no clue what it is.
Well, that isn't my relationship with God at all. I know some things about Him, but I also know Him on a personal basis BECAUSE He is a personal God. The Renaissance and (now) new theology deny the personality of God, so as to cling to the autonomy of men. The independence of man demands that God be pushed away and put into an unknowable box. In that way, absolutely all difficult questions about the reality of man's existence, for example, can be pushed under the rug. Nobody knows, it's a mystery, just believe what the men of the Church tell you. It has long been my belief that the personal relationship an Apostolic has is not with God at all. It is with the Church. The Church is the real center of the Apostolic faith, imo.
Knowing God personally is a different story. Those who claim they know God personally open up a can of worms with such claims. Have you seen Him? If so, how do you know it was God? Have you heard Him?
I have seen and heard God's work in myself, others around me, and in His creation itself. I know it is God when it matches what God's Holy word says, and other times in less specific ways. It sounds to me like you are redefining what a personal relationship is to ONLY mean something in which two physical beings meet together and touch physically. This sounds forced to me for the sole purpose of eliminating the possibility of having a "personal" relationship with God.
Do you believe that two humans could NOT develop a personal relationship by solely writing to each other, without having met in the flesh? Do you think that never happens? I won't physically meet and shake hands with Christ in this lifetime. However, He DOES speak to me and I certainly speak to Him all the time. Our relationship is deeply personal. I tell Him things I wouldn't tell anyone else because I trust Him, not because I "have to". To be honest, I can't imagine being able to love any God with whom I did not have a personal relationship. To me, that would be like saying "I love that movie". I don't understand it.
Then there is a problem of credibility of such personal experiences. When challenged, the usual answer is "I swear I have" as "proof." Making such extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence or proof is foolish, self-serving and self-cenetered, and most of all not convincing.
If God had designed our faith to be provable to all men, to whatever standard they demanded, then all men would believe. Obviously, God did not design it this way. Only those to whom God would reveal the truth would ever believe and know about themselves. Whether I can convince another of my faith, or whether I can convince him of the truth of the fruits of the Spirit that are worked through me, is irrelevant to the truth of my faith. That is something only God and I can know for sure.
On personal salvation, we simply state facts, in remarkably similar ways, as best we know them by the leading of the Holy Spirit. The truth of facts is not dependent on who or how many people agree with the facts.
Exactly.. the Apostles were just being Jews.. doing Jewish things.. but Paul "got it" directly from Jesus(Holy Spirit) in a manner they all had not.. I would say a double dose.. like Isaiah.. Almost the same scenario happened in Galatia but Paul was ready for it..
If the Apostles could miss something so important like forsake the (Jewish)traditions and ceremonys of your fathers so much MORE can/could the hand me down "apostles" that replaced them.. I am getting a feeling some or all RCC and EO's and a few others should re-read the book of Galatians and consider the impact and import of it.. You have highlighted a very very important possibility of ERROR by any christian.. Tradition and Ceremony can enslave the work of God in your life and hamstring it the way it almost did to ALL OF THE APOSTLES except Paul.. No doubt they were performing other traditions besides circumcision...
BRILLIANT dear girl ... brilliant..
When we pray for any other member in the body of Christ, we benefit from the prayer as well.
What else does one do with that verse?
Thx.
LOL.
As though the RC edifice, EO, and ALL the other Christian clubs are not man-contrived, man-made, politically ran!
LOL!
ROTFLOL!
GTTM!
INDEED.
OKay, let's look at Galatians. Let's look at more than just one part though.
Let's look at 1:18, the part where Paul stays with Cephas and meets with James. Then again let's look at 2:1 and especially 2:2 where Paul submits his preaching to their judgment and2:9 where they approve and commission him.
Then we might go over to Acts 15 and the council in Jerusalem in which the Apostles speak in the name of the Holy Spirit. Leaving aside the unsupportable suggestion that the vague "some men came down from Judea," refers to apostles, we have Paul at once disagreeing with what some in the Church — even Cephas 镄 are doing and nevertheless submitting to the council, acquiescing in their decision, and accepting a commission, an apostolate, from them.
Yes, Paul rebuked Cephas, as Catherine of Siena rebuked her pope. It's good for popes to be rebuked from time to time. It keeps them humble. But he also went to Cephas and the other apostles for ratification of his ministry.
To me all this is another instance of making a difference starker than it is in reality. Sola Scriptura Protestants seem to disregard the submission of Paul to the leaders of the Church in Jerusalem, and then when Peter says that Baptism saves us, there is a slight lingering suggestion that Peter, well, okay, yeah, he's in the canon, but we don't have to believe the parts we don't like; after all, parts of the canon are "of straw", and we can cloak our selective disbelief under the rubric of using Scripture (the parts we like) to interpret Scripture (the parts we don't like).
The distinction between works of the Old Law and Grace is made so stark that the possibility that some things in the new covenant might meaningfully combine aspects of work and grace, so that a work like Baptism might be seen as a gift, is rejected out of hand.
The controversy of Baptism really highlights this. The apparent Protestant tendency to make distinctions starker than they are shows up in fervently maintaining, even after texts which show otherwise are cited, that when the Church says that Baptism is the "ordinary" means of salvation she means it is the "exclusive" means of salvation.
In this thread Alamo-girl has said (if I understand her) that knowledge of God's will frees her from the law of non-contradiction and of the excluded middle. But some Protestants insist that if a thing is a "work" why it must be a "work of the law" and it thus cannot also be a "grace", while Catholics bask happily in the apparently excluded middle where merit is a gift and works are graces.
It's interesting. There's a rejection of the very reason that is required for conversation and of the kind of nuance, the "in a certain way, yes, but in another way, no" that always attends conversation about great matters. "LOL" (and the like) is considered an argument and a refutation. There's not only disagreement on the terms of discourse, there's no agreement on the nature or purpose of discourse.
The leaning I have in the Spirit is to the Jewish understanding of soul and spirit as follows.
1. nephesh – the will to live, the animal soul, or the soul of all living things which by Jewish tradition returns to the “earth” after death. In Romans 8, this is seen as a whole, the creation longing for the children of God to be revealed.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. - Romans 8:19-22
2. ruach - the self-will or free will peculiar to man (abstraction, anticipation, intention, etc.) – by Jewish tradition, the pivot wherein a man decides to be Godly minded or earthy minded. Ruach is the breath of life in Genesis 6:17 and the ability to choose which Eve "blew."
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. - Genesis 2:3
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life, from under heaven; [and] every thing that [is] in the earth shall die. - Genesis 6:17
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. - Romans 8:5-6
3. neshama - the breath of God given to Adam (Genesis 2:7) which may also be seen as the “ears to hear” (John 10) - a sense of belonging beyond space/time, a predisposition to seek God and seek answers to the deep questions such as “what is the meaning of life?"
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:4-5
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. – John 6:44
4. ruach Elohim - the Holy Spirit which indwells Christians – the presently existing in the “beyond” while still in the flesh. This is the life in passage : "In him was life, and the life was the light of men..." (John 1)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14
In sum, my musing is that all life has nephesh, all men have ruach, the elect of God have neshama, and the children of God have the indwelling ruach Elohim.
"Churchy" people do tend to strain at gnats and swallow camels.
***This from the fellow who declared candidly that prostrating one’s self before an image of Mary WOULD BE idolatry . . .
and now seems to be glibly side stepping the fact that 100’s of thousands and likely millions do just that?***
Who are they? Name some of them. I don’t know any and I don’t know of any except that little coven of nuns in Quebec that was just excommunicated for worshiping Mary.
Your hundreds of thousands or more likely millions appear to have as much proof as many other of your claims.
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