Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
In response I would say that spiritual is personal and real with the One true God. I'm sure that Muslims, etc., might say the same thing, but they are not my concern. I have only my experience, and the scriptures. My saying the above is not intended to "prove" to you that spiritual is something more than your picture. It's just what occurs to me first.
What doesn't occur to me is to think of spiritual in terms of "reliable" or "repeatable". Spiritual is different from the quadratic formula. But that doesn't make spiritual any less true.
If I thought that spiritual was unreliable, I don't know why I would bother. And to my knowledge, none of my spirituality relies on "overt" physical manifestations of miracles. I happen to believe that I witness "miracles" every day, but I don't look for them and say "OK, now it's alright to keep believing". :)
We have no way of knowing if there is such a "thing" as a spirit. The word itself comes from the ancient Hebrew and Greek words for "breath." The ancients assigned life-like properties to that breath, which is really a mechanical movement of air and it is present in all creatures that have active lungs. In others, gas-exchange takes place passively.
It depends on what we accept as "proof" and "truth". From your context I assume you are talking about the human spirit:
1 Cor 2:11 : For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Since this is Paul, we may disagree on the worth of this, but I highly doubt that the intention was to speak of a man's inanimate breath. :)
When humans and other lung-breathing animals die, they stop breathing. Death (irreversible cessation of mechanical life functions) follows a while later when the cell functions cease due to lack of oxygen, and not because the "spirit" left the body. Let's get real here.
How can you POSSIBLY know how this works? I do not claim to tell you how much a soul weighs, but how in the world can you declare that there is no soul that departs the body at the point of death? Your own Church has doctrine or dogma about it with which I disagree. :) If man has no spirit, then what is it that goes to Heaven or hell?
The Reformed are being equated to Mohammedans not because of their "spiritual" perception but because of their fundamentalist views, which are very often identical.
What is a "fundamentalist view"?
The empiricist looks at the universe and says "I have no clue why I am here. I could make up a story and let my fancy weave a myth, but I will just accept life as is, and if there is something higher out there, I offer my deepest thanks for all the blessings I received." That's not rejecting God, it's simply not presuming anything we cannot understand.
The empiricist you describe is a non-believer who is hedging his bets. That does not relieve him of his status as a non-believer. Of course I am very concerned about them. But closer to the conversation, I am also concerned about the empiricist who has faith in SOME things, but rejects MANY others because they don't fit a mathematical formula. I would think that an empiricist would be very interested in things like internal logic. However, I am unsure, YET, how to deal with an empiricist who says "I am an empiricist, and I have a faith in Christianity which makes no sense at all!". :)
Gnosticism is well defined. It holds that spirits pre-existed their bodies ...
Whether a spirit "pre-exists" a physical body must be defined in terms of God's knowledge and plan (intent). If this is part of your belief that Reformers are Gnostic, could you tell us what you think our view of this is based on this parameter?
FK: "I have been saying that our faith is indeed a reasonable (reasoned) one, but with the prerequisite that we start with Godly presuppositions."
There you go again with that a priori acceptance. Like I said, once you accept something on blind faith, everything else then becomes self-evident "truth."
I know that you believe that Baptism has salvational effects, and that Chrismation sort of "seals the deal". Since these happen at such a young age, how do you see the cause of actual initial faith? Is it simply a person making a decision for himself to believe?
FK: "Without [Godly presuppositions], God's word is nonsense."
Objection! Assumption.
No, there's no assumption:
Ezek 36:26-27 : 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Do you believe that people choose God without the above having first taken place?
FK: "... but with [Godly presuppositions] I think the faith makes perfect sense.
I am glad you said "I think" because you are not sure, are you? There is some "empiricist' still left in you, FK. :)
I am VERY sure, well beyond a "reasonable doubt". :) I am confident in saying that because by the reasonable doubt standard I would be willing to bet the life of another man. But here I am willing to bet my own life.
I just didn't want to speak for anyone else because we all describe our certainty in different ways. :)
Whew.. the art of the insult is not dead...
Remind me to never urinate you off...
I noticed “the slight” too in his comment.. but gave it the Curly(Howard) salute.. My thought is he may not know the Holy Spirit which payback enough.. pityful enough.. deserving of prayer even.. which I invested in..
Actually, IT IS! :) I could have sworn there was a good Warfield piece on this, but regrettably, I couldn't find it. The following is the next best I could do. It is excerpts from Reformed Doctrine of Predestination -- Chapter VI - The Foreknowledge of God . (This is from "The Reformed Presbyterian Church" in Bloomington, IN.:
What is the Apostolic argument against this?
Dear sister,I pray for you to be careful in what you’re trying to promote.
The groups who promote the book of Enoch church cover up theory are the Sherry Shriner Arnold Murray Serpent Seed believers along with the mormons as well
here is an example of this nonsense!
http://www.sherryshriner.com/church-coverup.htm
May God protect your mind.
According to Millers ( and other) Church History(s) the Roman Catholic Church didn't even gain ascendancy(primacy) until the early third century A.D. (313a.d.).. Until then various "church" centers of influence existed.. even after that.. The EO's still Don't recognize primacy.. I believe..
The seven churchs of Asia in Revelation was/is quite prophical I say..
Millers Church History....
http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ebooks/millers/toc.htm
"...It thus appears that it is highly important for us to have clear and spiritual views of the “foreknowledge” of God. Erroneous conceptions about it lead inevitably to thoughts most dishonouring to Him. The popular idea of Divine foreknowledge is altogether inadequate. God not only knew the end from the beginning, but He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God’s purpose is the ground of His prescience. If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose; chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief. This being so, all the glory and praise belongs alone to Him. You have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have “believed through grace” (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was “of grace” (Rom 11:5)."
And here's Warfield's terrific essay...
No matter what we may say of Predestination in moments of puzzlement, as we stand in face of the problems of life—the problem of the petty, the problem of suffering, the problem of sin—it is safe to say that at the bottom of our minds we all believe in it. We cannot help believing in it—if we believe in God; and that, in its utmost extension, as applying to everything about us which comes to pass...""...To say Predestination is to say all this. It is to introduce order into the universe. It is to assign an end and a worthy end to it. It enables us to speak of a far off divine event to which the whole creation is moving. It enables us to see that whatever occurs, great or small, has a place to fill in this universal teleology; and thus has significance given it, and a juustification supplied to it. To say Predestination is thus not only to say God; it is also to say Theodicy.
"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" -- Galatians 4:16
It is like new age Kabbalah-ists who claim the writings of Jewish mystics as their own. Also false. Jewish mysticism consists of closely held secrets passed on by oral teaching. The term Kabbalah itself means 'receiving' because a person allegedly cannot understand it by reading what is available, whatever it is it must be passed on verbally. Sound waves allegedly are part of their mysticism. The phrase "those who know don't tell, and those who tell don't know" applies. That is also Zen teaching, btw. LOL!
If you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, then fine.
I am not "promoting" Enoch. Read it if you want or not if you want. The Catholic Church makes their translation of "Henoch" available to you.
Rather, I'm using it here as "Exhibit A" to show that the claim of the Catholic Church that the church always and everywhere believed thus and so is patently empty.
“According to Millers ( and other) Church History(s) the Roman Catholic Church didn’t even gain ascendancy(primacy) until the early third century A.D. (313a.d.).”
That’s a fairy tale, hosepipe; spin to cover for the excesses of the Reformation by fabricating bogus history. I must say I have never really understood that sort of thing as there were plenty of reasons to reform the Medieval Latin Church without resorting to that stuff.
“Until then various “church” centers of influence existed.. even after that.”
They still do, hosepipe. They are called Patriarchates and there are a number of them east of the Adriatic. There was never more than one west of the Adriatic, Rome.
“The EO’s still Don’t recognize primacy.. I believe..”
In accordance with the rulings of the Councils, Orthodoxy recognizes that Rome is the first see of Christendom; that it holds a primacy of honor. Orthodoxy further holds that Rome separated itself from the rest of The Church by teaching novel doctrines unknown to the Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils or to The Church of the first millenium. Most of the most important of those Roman theological innovations which caused the schism were adopted by Protestantism. There is, therefore, a schism between Rome and the other Patriarchates and so for now Constantinople holds the primacy of honor among the Patriarchs of The Church.
I see.. So Fox’s Book of Martyrs is also a fabrication since it was written primarily so that WHEN the “See” re-writes history for roman catholics John Fox wrote this so that the sacrifices of many would not be lost.. Millers Church History was written more or less for the same purpose.. Excesses of the reformation indeed(Sic).. The RCC has no lack of excesses.. itself..
http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html
Hosepipe, as the Latins here will attest, I am no apologist for the Roman Church, especially the medieval Roman Church. I do find it intellectually sloppy, however, to cling to silly notions like the “Roman Catholic” church attaining “primacy” in 313, or being “created” by Constantine the Great. The Reformers and their spiritual descendants don’t need falsifications to justify their revolt to anyone so far as I can see.
Lumping Orthodoxy in with all that is completely inappropriate. As you know, there was never a reformation in the East...nor did we burn heretics (well, the Russians did in the 1600s but they weren’t Protestants, they were ultra tradionalists).
I would agree. And I would also point out the numbers of otherwise holy men that descended in apostasy and heresy. What do true believers believe? What is core and what is fringe? Who decides?
Good and fair questions all. Off the cuff I would probably look first to the identity of Christ and salvational issues. I'm not aware of any disagreement our sides have with respect to the former. But even with the latter, while we have huge process disagreements, I "think" we both agree that true faith in the former is required along with what you might call "works" and I might call "fruits". IOW, to some unknown extent, IMO, it all comes out in the wash. We just spend our lives differently while here on earth. ......... Of course I would say that God determines and decides all.
[continuing:] Either those who claim the indwelling Holy Spirit, or the Church.
Yes, since it is the hierarchy of the Church that does all the "speaking" I suppose that's fair. :)
John Fox wrote this so that the sacrifices of many would not be lost.
AMEN!
Foxe (correct spelling) was a propagandist for the British government - pure and simple.
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