Knowing of something is not knowing it. You may have heard of something, and you know that it exists, but you have no clue what it is.
Well, that isn't my relationship with God at all. I know some things about Him, but I also know Him on a personal basis BECAUSE He is a personal God. The Renaissance and (now) new theology deny the personality of God, so as to cling to the autonomy of men. The independence of man demands that God be pushed away and put into an unknowable box. In that way, absolutely all difficult questions about the reality of man's existence, for example, can be pushed under the rug. Nobody knows, it's a mystery, just believe what the men of the Church tell you. It has long been my belief that the personal relationship an Apostolic has is not with God at all. It is with the Church. The Church is the real center of the Apostolic faith, imo.
Knowing God personally is a different story. Those who claim they know God personally open up a can of worms with such claims. Have you seen Him? If so, how do you know it was God? Have you heard Him?
I have seen and heard God's work in myself, others around me, and in His creation itself. I know it is God when it matches what God's Holy word says, and other times in less specific ways. It sounds to me like you are redefining what a personal relationship is to ONLY mean something in which two physical beings meet together and touch physically. This sounds forced to me for the sole purpose of eliminating the possibility of having a "personal" relationship with God.
Do you believe that two humans could NOT develop a personal relationship by solely writing to each other, without having met in the flesh? Do you think that never happens? I won't physically meet and shake hands with Christ in this lifetime. However, He DOES speak to me and I certainly speak to Him all the time. Our relationship is deeply personal. I tell Him things I wouldn't tell anyone else because I trust Him, not because I "have to". To be honest, I can't imagine being able to love any God with whom I did not have a personal relationship. To me, that would be like saying "I love that movie". I don't understand it.
Then there is a problem of credibility of such personal experiences. When challenged, the usual answer is "I swear I have" as "proof." Making such extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence or proof is foolish, self-serving and self-cenetered, and most of all not convincing.
If God had designed our faith to be provable to all men, to whatever standard they demanded, then all men would believe. Obviously, God did not design it this way. Only those to whom God would reveal the truth would ever believe and know about themselves. Whether I can convince another of my faith, or whether I can convince him of the truth of the fruits of the Spirit that are worked through me, is irrelevant to the truth of my faith. That is something only God and I can know for sure.
On personal salvation, we simply state facts, in remarkably similar ways, as best we know them by the leading of the Holy Spirit. The truth of facts is not dependent on who or how many people agree with the facts.
***I know some things about Him, but I also know Him on a personal basis BECAUSE He is a personal God.***
He is further above us than we are above the rotifers. Infinitely further. How is the personal touch carried out?
***The independence of man demands that God be pushed away and put into an unknowable box.***
We contend that the Reformation has attempted to elevate man to the point where not only does he invent his own God, he elevates himself to the point where he has his own personal God.
***It has long been my belief that the personal relationship an Apostolic has is not with God at all. It is with the Church. The Church is the real center of the Apostolic faith, imo.***
The Church is the teaching institution. We must all learn and therefore we need to go to the Church for learning, instruction, and for receiving the Sacraments. The priest is a religious leader of the people, but only one of the people. That’s why it is so important that we celebrate Mass with the priest facing with the people, up to God, rather than the Protestant lecture hall.
***However, He DOES speak to me and I certainly speak to Him all the time. Our relationship is deeply personal. I tell Him things I wouldn’t tell anyone else because I trust Him, not because I “have to”. ***
How does the speech work? Is it an actual voice, or is it subconscious?
***If God had designed our faith to be provable to all men, to whatever standard they demanded, then all men would believe.***
How many people saw Christ in the flesh, saw miracles, heard Him teach and still didn’t believe? Just more evidence for the free will of men.
***The truth of facts is not dependent on who or how many people agree with the facts.***
Agreed. But believing something very strongly does not make it true either.
First, the only aspect of God we can call "personal" is Jesus, and that is based solely on His human nature and solely on a blind belief that He is indeed God as well as Man.
We relate to Him through our human nature and senses (i.e. pain, suffering, fear, crying, death, etc.), but not His divine nature.
Second, what is the nature of your "personal relationship" with God/Jesus? Does He appear to you? And then, how would you know it really is Jesus?
It's the humility of man that admits God is an unreachable mystery for us and that we can at best be compared to His sheep. Last time I checked, cheep don't have a "fellowship" with their shepherd! I think it would be very presumptuous of any sheep to assume that the shepherd is anything more than recognizable but never "known," or, God forbid, "understood."
It is the arrogance of the Reformed that arrogates God to a "personal God" by elevating the status of the "elect" sheep to that of a "fellowship" with the Supreme Being.
Oh, I see. First you read the Bible, then you see what God does, then you recognize that it is from God because the Bible told you so? So, when a Jew does a good deed, is that from God too? How about a Muslim? How about atheist? Was there God in Gandhi as well?
It has long been my belief that the personal relationship an Apostolic has is not with God at all. It is with the Church. The Church is the real center of the Apostolic faith, imo.
The Church is where the sacraments (mysteria) are administered. That is our relationship with God—through grace. And that is based entirely on our faith that the Holy Spirit partakes in the process.
The gathering of the faithful is where Christ is. That is His Church. But anyone who calls "Lord, Lord" can not be the Church and believe all sorts of things, for that would make God's church relative, and that is the sin of universalism and ecumenical relativism, which comes, naturally, from Protestantism and Protetsant-like mindedness.
This sounds forced to me for the sole purpose of eliminating the possibility of having a "personal" relationship with God.
No, it is perfectly passable for two human beings to establish a "relationship" without physically meeting and touching. But we are to talking about two human beings. We are talking about a relationship between the Shepherd and the sheep. What does the sheep really know about the Shepherd? Not much. Hardly a "personal relationship," more like a master and a pet, except in the case of God, infinitely more distant and separate.
However, He DOES speak to me.
He does He? How? What does He sound like? Does He say "FK" and you respond "Here I am God..."? And he says "why are you persecuting my Church?" And do you get blinded and fall down on the ground and beg to know who this is? Or do you just have a friendly "chat" while you are driving? "What's up with these snowstorms, Daddy?" (I believe Quix calls God the Father "Daddy," how "cute"), and He says "What do you want me to do with the weather...FK, my adopted son?"
I tell Him things I wouldn't tell anyone else because I trust Him, not because I "have to". To be honest, I can't imagine being able to love any God with whom I did not have a personal relationship
Well, if He knows everything you do and think and want and say, what choice do you have? That's not a personal relationship by choice, but by fiat. If you can't beat'em, join'em. So, yes you "have to" otherwise He knows you are lying and because you believe that everything you do is because He wants you to do!
And if God wanted men to fly... Try again something better.
Only those to whom God would reveal the truth would ever believe and know about themselves
That is a big time speculation.
Whether I can convince another of my faith, or whether I can convince him of the truth of the fruits of the Spirit that are worked through me, is irrelevant to the truth of my faith.
Well, if it is something very personal/experiential, then no one but you can know in that sense, and there are no words to descirbe it and there is no point in trying to share it with others.
Your faith should be sufficient to you because, obviously by your logic, God wanted it to be deeply personal and not provable to men unless God already made them believe, in which case there is no need to prove anything! :)
But you are also making a giant leap of faith when you say that your faith is right because you "know" it is! Wow! That's rich, FK.
On personal salvation, we simply state facts, in remarkably similar ways, as best we know them by the leading of the Holy Spirit
Nothing remarkable about it, FK. All your co-religionists read the same Book and use the same language and verses, and pick and choose the same "truths." We could equally argue that those who don't agree with you are also led by the Holy Spirit to disagree with you and prove exactly nothing!
The truth of facts is not dependent on who or how many people agree with the facts.
What "facts," FK? You have not stated a single fact; just beliefs.