Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
The one who "authorizes" is the one in authority. It doesn't make a difference. In your theology, the HS is taking orders, or accepting authority from Jesus. That subordains the HS.
The Holy Spirit does as he pleses as far as I know
That contradicts what you said about Jesus authorizing the HS.
You are tripping all over yourself here, espousing two contradictory beliefs:
1) that Jesus "authorizes," i.e. gives authoirty to, empowers, the HS. and 2) that the HS does as He pleases (as far as you know [sic]?)
Do you have a problem with John 15:26? Jesus clearly will SEND the Councelor (Holy Spirit) to his followers. So Jesus does authorize the Holy Spirit to come. Same with 16:7.
The only thing that was rendered obsolete was the Old Covenant(cf Heb 8), and that was beforereligion, i.e. organized faith, and never said He came to change that.
The Body of Christ, the called out ones(church), or the flock(sheep).. are metaphors about "the family of God".. Which is a "family"
Sounds like something the LDS would come up with...that's not Christianity either.
an organization.. or club.. i.e. like a current church..
The Church is not a club or an organization; it calls itself an Organism, with a Head and a Body.
I believe every human ever born is a spirit in a body suit.. That they were spirits before incarnation and will be after incarnation..
I respect your belief. But I do want to make it clear that the pre-existence of the souls is (a) pagan (b) Jewish and (c) Gnostic belief.
And are NOW spirits and that is what the metaphor of being born again means.. Realizing you are basically a spirit and not flesh at all.. and should start conducting yourself as an eternal being NOW..
And what is the basis for your belief that we are spirits and not flesh? And how should an eternal being conduct itself and how do you know?
Who is the messiah?.. God coming to this planet personally to encode this message in his parables which are metaphors..
Why parables and metaphors?
To lead those that are willing into reality..
Okay.
What reality?.. That they are spirits that will live eternally
Did the spirits also exist "eternally?"
The reason for his doing this is I think to shut the mouth of any that would say(at some time) why didn't you openly.. approach me face to face..
And why doesn't he?
Thats a primer about what I believe about the messiah.. not all but a start to tell it all would not work in this venue.. I skipped over so much.. but you asked..
Is this your own belief or are there others? And what do you base your belief on? Inspiration? Bible? Visions? Messages? What methods do you use to authenticate these answers?
Old reads: that was beforereligion, i.e. organized faith, and never said He came to change that.
Should read: and that was before the Messiah. As far as I can tell from the NT, jesus practiced and participated in the Jewish religion, i.e. organized faith, and never said He came to change that.
Apologies
the_conscience: No doubt you base this upon incontrovertible empirical data, using the same methodology as your Bible criticism, and have all the evidence to prove that all the rituals and dogma of the Greek church is directly handed down from the Apostles. (BTW, that would exclude any indirect references to old testament Jewish customs)
The New Testament tells us that the Church received the faith from the beginning and that the Apostles were there to receive it.
The point I was making, which you seem to have missed, is that at the end of the 4th century the Church canonized the New Testament. At that same time, the Church doctrines and worship are known and documented (two Ecumenical Councils, Trinitarian dogma, the Creed, the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, etc. along with Church fathers, Cappadocian Fathers and the desert Fathers proclaiming one and the same orthodox and catholic faith in "word and in epistles").
So, to answer your question, Yes, there is objective evidence that the Orthodox Church today teaches and believes and serves the same divine liturgy as the Church served, taught and believed at the time of NT canonization. This objective evidence is in the fact that we serve both the shorter (St. John Chrysostom's) and the full version of St. Basil's Divine Liturgy, and that we teach the same doctrines taught by the Church at the time of its NT canonization.
You can't ,on the one hand, give Church credit for knowing which books are inspired, and on the other deny its knowledge of the word of God, it's doctrine, or it's proper ancient form of worship.
Of course you can.
Nothing and no one is perfect except Christ.
No, because the Apostles were Jews and worshipped as Jews. There are a lot of Jewish elements in the Divine Liturgy of St. The evolution of Christian worship can be discerned from the Didache and writings of St. Justin Martyr, as the ealriest documents attesting to this.
The Liturgy of James the Just (the oldest Christian Liturgy which is in its fixed portion for all practical purpsoes the same liturgy as that of St. Basil and Chrysostom, except that it has more OT references).
Again, you war against Scripture...
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" -- Romans 9:11
You two insist on a works-based salvation when the Bible tells us over and over that our own works are as filthy rags to God, and we are only saved by Christ's work on the cross alone.
If anyone has wandered why I have not responded to any of your posts, it’s because I have decided to spend more time in deep prayer.
I wish you all a blessed evening!
Dr. E: Of course you can
Sure, but you will have to produce evidence that shows why did the Church recongize the inspired text from the profane writings but didn't know what it was doing, teaching or worshiping.
Amen!
Good works are the evidence of our salvation, not a requirement for it.
Nothing can merit God's mercy except Christ on the cross, by whose stripes we are healed.
Where do we see yours? Hating a group of people, last time I checked, isn't a "good work".
My partner is Jewish, the son-in-law of a former Chief Rabbi of Budapest. Every time he attends a service or a Divine Liturgy at our Greek Orthodox Church, he comes away marveling that he could have been at a Temple ceremony, as he understands they were, except for the obvious differences. His father-in-law has confirmed this to me many times. You’re going to have to look elsewhere for evidence undermining the continuing and ancient character of our Divine Liturgies, tc.
What kosta has presented is what those of us who are Orthodox have been saying here on FR for years. We believe the same things and worship God in the same way as the bishops who determined the canon of the NT in the 4th century. This is just a statement of historical fact. Personally, I don’t understand why Christians who are committed to the notion that the HS inerrantly guides its people to correctly interpret scripture have a problem accepting what is simply history.
Where do we see yours? Hating a group of people, last time I checked, isn't a "good work".
Oh oops. I'm sorry Dr. Eckleburg I though I was addressing a different poster. That comment was not meant for you. I apologize.
No, just a rmeinder, as mark pointed out to you, that the reformed theology steps all over its toes.
Romans 9:11...You two insist on a works-based salvation when the Bible tells us over and over that our own works are as filthy rags to God, and we are only saved by Christ's work on the cross alone
That is the deformed interpretation of the Reformed theology. And even if St. Paul were to say what you say he says (out of context), it would not be the entire "Bible" but only St. Paul, in Romans.
Let's get that straight, and agree on this: St. Paul is not the Bible. And his wiritngs are not to edify the orthodox but to correct the deviant chruches. So, it is somewhat ironic that so many deviants looked at him as the Bible (Gnostics, Marcion, and the Reformation)
The misperception is yours, Mark.
If we believe, it is because God has given us faith.
If we believe, it is because God has given us new ears and new eyes and a new heart with which to believe.
If we believe, it is because God has named us to His family from before the foundation of the world.
And at a time of God's choosing, we will believe and know our salvation is by Christ's atonement alone.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." -- Ephesians 1:4-6"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
We either believe God's word, or we don't.
***The New Testament tells us that the Church received the faith from the beginning and that the Apostles were there to receive it. ***
There’s your problem. Churches don’t receive faith, people do. The Church received the NT which the Apostles and others wrote with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Giving them scripture isn’t hating them.
Oops, now I see your apology. My bad.
***Let’s get that straight, and agree on this: St. Paul is not the Bible.***
You’ve got to be kidding me.
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