Posted on 11/14/2007 8:28:07 AM PST by fortcollins
Joseph Smith Jr. was born December 23, 1805 in Sharon, Vermont. It is interesting that Brigham Young and John Humphrey Noyes, founder of the Oneida Community in upstate New York, also were born in Vermont. Joseph Smith Sr. lost considerable money in speculative business ventures putting the family in near poverty and resulting in seven moves in the first fourteen years of Joseph Smith’s life. Around the year 1815 his family settled in Palmyra New York, just north of the finger lakes, and not far from the Oneida Free Community. He was limited in education and training, had little interest in farming or other types of work, and his interests moved into the spiritual and mystical realms. He spent a fair amount of time searching for buried treasure claiming miraculous powers but not succeeding.
In his autobiography “The Pearl of Great Price”, Joseph Smith relates that he became disturbed by the religious squabbles among Methodists, Baptists and Presbyterians in the community and indeed in his own family. He elected to follow advice he had found in James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” In the spring of 1820 Smith went to the woods to pray and to seek God. In his words he was sized by a “great power that left him speechless and in darkness.” He called on God for deliverance and then saw a great light over his head and heard a voice saying “This is my beloved son, hear him.” His next visit occurred three years later on September 21, 1823 when he was visited by an Angel named Maroni who directed him to a nearby hill where he would find a hidden book written on gold plates along with information on how to translate the inscribed words. The translated book became the Book of Mormon.
In 1829 Smith and his friend baptized each other and were visited, in his account, by John the Baptist who conferred on them both the Priesthood of Aaron. Later that year, although the date is uncertain, they were visited by the Apostles Peter, James and John who conferred on them both the both the Priesthood of Melchizedek, the King of Salem (Jerusalem) who lived during the time of the patriarch Abraham. As described in the Doctrines and Covenants of the Mormon Church Smith continued to receive revelations from God until his death.
In 1830 Joseph Smith established his Church in upstate New York and called it initially the Church of Christ. Later he moved his Church to Kirtland, Ohio, then Caldwell County, Missouri and in 1839 to Nauvoo Illinois. As a result of events that happened in Nauvoo, to be discussed below, he was arrested, moved to a jail in the county seat, Carthage where he and his brother Hyrum were assassinated by an angry mob.
Book of Mormon
In 1830 Smith was directed by an encounter with the angel Moroni to a location near Palimyra, New York on a hill subsequently named Cumorah where he found golden plates These plates were miraculously translated by Smith which revealed that it was the Book of Mormon that had been inscribed on these plates. Only a small handful of Smith’s followers were allowed to see the plates. Smith published his translation in 1830 and the angel Moroni subsequently took the plates back.
The Book of Mormon describes the migration by boat of several Jewish tribes from what we now call Israel to what we now call the New World of North and South America 600 years before Christ. Two of these tribes were named the Nephites and the Lamanites. The Lamanites are described as marked by God with a darker skin color to identify their state of wickedness. After Christ’s resurrection he visited the New World and the Nephites and the Lamanites subsequently had several centuries of peaceful co-existence and cooperation. This ended with a massive battle on the hill Cumorah in which the Nephites were destroyed by the Lamanites. Mormons believe that American Indians are descendants of the Lamanites. In the Book of Ether, one of the books in the Book of Mormon, a people described as the Jaredites are described. Thes people were present at the Tower of Babel when human language was confounded but they fortunately escaped such confounding of their language. Approximately 2500 years before Christ the Jaredites by barge migrated to the New World. They grew to a civilization of two million people before they destroyed themselves by their own behavior just prior to the arrival of the Nephites and Lamanites.
This all is, of course, a fabulous fable for which there is not even minimally convincing archeological, anthropological or historical evidence. However to say it is a creative fable written by an individual with an exceptionally imaginative mind would be an understatement. History of Mormonism
The organizational meeting of the Church of Christ, the forerunner of what became the Mormon Church was held April 6, 1830. Smith and Cowdery met with a small number of their followers. A lay ministry was ordained with a priesthood and offices of deacon, teacher, and elder. Smith and Cowdery were ordained as Apostles of Jesus Christ and as first and second elders respectively. In 1831 the Church moved to Kirtland. Ohio and its name was changed to the Church of Latter Day Saints. Sidney Rigdon, a prominent restorationist minister and follower of Alexander Campbell converted to Mormonism, joined Smith’s nascent Church and brought a large number of “Cambellites” along with him. The Church of Latter Day Saints doubled in size. A Mormon temple was built in Kirtland. At that time a second Mormon gathering place was established in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri. Smith declared that the “City of Zion” would be built at that site. Construction was started but the temple was never built.
By 1837 the Church in Kirtland was unraveling with apostasy among the leadership and members and major financial irregularities in a bank Smith established. Smith, Rigdon and some of their followers fled from Kirtland to Missouri in the middle of the night. Dissenters in Kirtland reestablished the original Church of Christ and took possession of the temple. In 1836 the Mormon legislature had established the town of Far West, in Caldwell County as a place for Mormons to settle and so they did immediately. In 1838 Smith and Rigdon moved to Far West and had to struggle for Church leadership with Mormons already there and in Independence. Church leaders Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and William Wines Phelps were excommunicated by Smith and eventually fled Far West under threats for their lives. Cowdery and Whitmer were two of the three who claimed they had seen the golden plates. The Mormon Church now again under the leadership of Joseph Smith was reestablished and renamed the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, its present name.
In Far West Smith organized a paramilitary organization called the Danites, named in honor of the Jewish tribe of Dan of which Sampson was a member. Its role was to enforce religious conformity and protect the Mormons against the non Mormons. Secret instruction given the Captains of the Danites are described by Smith as follows:
“Know ye not, brethren, that it will soon be your privilege to take !your respective companies and go out on a scout on the borders of the settlements, and take to yourselves spoils of the goods of the ungodly Gentiles? for it is written, the riches of the Gentiles shall be 'consecrated to my people, the house of Israel; and thus you will waste away the Gentiles by robbing and plundering them of their property; and in this way we will build up the kingdom of God, and roll forth the little stone that Daniel saw cut out of the mountain without hands, and roll forth until it filled the whole earth. For this is the very way that God destines to build up His kingdom in the last days. If any of us should be recognized, who can harm us? for we will stand by each other and defend one another in all things. . . . I would swear a lie to clear any of you; and if this would not do, I would put them or him under the sand as Moses did the Egyptian; and in this way we will consecrate much unto the Lord.” This militancy, combined with claims of almost universal authority by Smith and Rigdon and the behavior of the Mormon settlers in Missouri led to much resentment on the part of the non-Mormons, now called “Gentiles”. In fact the Church militancy led Thomas B. Marsh, President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles to break with Smith and to establish his own Church the Church of Jesus Christ, the Lambs Wife. President Governor Boggs of Missouri issued an order that the Mormons should be exterminated and driven from Missouri. Among other things this led to a brutal and bloody attack by 200 Missouri militiamen on a Mormon settlement at Haun’s Hill. Many Mormons were killed. The fighting in Caldwell county became so intense that it is referred to as the Mormon Wars. It took 2500 Missouri militiamen to put down the rebellion. Governor Boggs ordered that Smith should be executed for treason. This outrageous order fortunately was never obeyed but the charge of treason remained. Smith and other Church leaders were arrested and imprisoned in a jail in Liberty, Missouri. They were allowed to escape and moved to an area in Illinois on the Mississippi river across from Iowa. Smith named his new town Nauvoo.
The Mormons regrouped in 1840 and by 1844 Nauvoo was the second most populous city in the State of Illinois. Joseph Smith’s vision of a Kingdom of God under his leadership came to full flowering in Nauvoo. Nauvoo had received a charter from the State Legislature allowing them to raise a well organized militia. Joseph became the Mayor, Chief Justice of the Nauvoo Municipal court and Lieutenant General and Commander of the Nauvoo militia. This militia contained close to 3000 troops compared with 8500 troops in the United States Army at that time.
In 1842 Smith established a new Anointed Council for the Church, a select group of individuals who received their endowments directly from Smith. In 1844, three months before his death Smith established the ultra-secret Council of Fifty which promptly named him King, Priest and ruler over Israel on earth. Smith had now been practicing plural marriage, i.e. polygamy, for some time but he now authorized plural marriage for all Mormons. This is remarkable because plural marriage is explicitly condemned and declared to be an abomination in the Book of Mormon (Book of Jacob 2: 24, 27). He also instituted baptism for the dead.
Smith declared in a public sermon on May 12, 1844 “I calculate to be one of the instruments of setting up the Kingdom of Daniel by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation to revolutionize the world”. These events and others led to the development of a strong dissenting movement led by William Law, one of the previous strongest supporters of Smith. On Sunday May 26, 1844 Smith gave a public response to the dissenters:
“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil——all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole Church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! In this statement he also denied plural marriages when the fact is he had anywhere from 30 -50 wives at that time.
The dissenters established an opposition newspaper the Nauvoo Expositor. The paper criticized the developing theocracy and autocracy in Nauvoo, and also criticized the newly established doctrine of plural marriage to which they took great exception. Smith ordered the Expositor’s printing presses destroyed and for this he was arrested by order of Governor Ford of Illinois. Smith was subsequently imprisoned in the jail at Carthage, the county seat. Unfortunately but not by design Joseph Smith was not provided with adequate protection by the governor’s forces and on June 27, 1844 he was murdered in his cell along with his brother Hyrum.
After the death of Smith, on April 5, 1845 Brigham Young became President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. On April 6, 1844 under Young’s leadership the Twelve Apostles issued the following declaration. For its audacity and scope it should be read in full: PROCLAMATION
OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS. To all the King's of the World; To the President of the United States of America; To the Governors of the several States; And to the Rulers and People of all Nations: GREETING: KNOW YE:—— THAT the kingdom of God has come: as has been predicted by ancient prophets, and prayed for in all ages; even that kingdom which shall fill the whole earth, and shall stand for ever. The great Eloheem Jehovah has been pleased once more to speak from the heavens: and also to commune with man upon the earth, by means of open visions, and by the ministration of HOLY MESSENGERS. By this means the great and eternal High Priesthood, after the Order of his Son, even the Apostleship, has been restored; or, returned to the earth. This High Priesthood, or Apostleship, holds the keys of the kingdom of God, and power to bind on earth that which shall be bound in heaven; and to loose on earth that which shall be loosed in heaven. And, in fine, to do, and to administer in all things pertaining to the ordinances, organization, government and direction of the kingdom of God.
The proclamation continues for a dozen pages of unbelievable claims and assertions.
Mormon Theology
What is discussed here briefly is the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with its headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah. The Church teaches that after the death of Jesus there was a Great Apostasy. In its own words: Following the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted and killed many Church members, and other Church members drifted from the principles taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. The Apostles were killed and the priesthood authority including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church was taken from the earth Because the Church was no longer led by priesthood authority and revelation, error crept into Church teachings. Good people and much truth remained, but the gospel as established by Jesus Christ was lost. This necessitated a Restoration of the Church which took place starting in 1820 with the first vision of Joseph Smith Jr, followed by Smith’’s discovery of the golden plates and the inscribed Book of Mormon, and many subsequent revelations claimed by Joseph Smith. The Priesthood authority (first Aaronic then Melchisedek) was conferred on Joseph Smith by Christ’’s Apostles Peter James and John. As a result Smith now claimed to possess the Fullness of the Gospel. Joseph Smith clearly was a Bible scholar, otherwise he would never have known about Melchizedek, a rather obscure figure in the Bible. The Priesthood of Mechizedek is mentioned only in three books of the Bible; Genesis, Psalms and Hebrews. In Genesis 14 Abram, after rescuing Lot in battle, is blessed by Melchizedek, king of Salem ( Jerusalem), who is described as a "priest of God Most High." In return Abram gives King Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle. In Psalm 110 the psalmist states that his personal lord has been made by the Lord on High a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." The unknown author of Hebrews in chapters 6-7 identifies Jesus as a "priest forever in the order of Melchizedek." Further this author claims that the Melchizedek Priesthood is superior to the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood by virtue of Abram giving Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils of battle, thus implying the superiority of Christianity over Judaism. Obviously Hebrews makes quite different theological points than does Joseph Smith.
On April 6, 1844 in the King Follett Discourse Joseph Smith described his view of the nature of God (Journal of Discourses vol 6):
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,-I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form-like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another. In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"-to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious-in a manner, to lay down his body and take up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,-namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,-from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me. In 1857, at the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City Brigham Young said this: I want to tell you, each and every one of you, that you are well acquainted with God our heavenly Father, or the great Eloheim. You are all well acquainted with Him, for there is not a soul of you but what has lived in His house and dwelt with Him year after year; and yet you are seeking to become acquainted with Him, when the fact is, you have merely forgotten what you did know. I told you a little last Sabbath about forgetting things. There is not a person here to-day but what is a son or a daughter of that Being. In the spirit world their spirits were first begotten and brought forth, and they lived there with their parents for ages before they came here. This, perhaps, is hard for many to believe, but it is the greatest nonsense in the world not to believe it. If you do not believe it, cease to call Him Father; and when you pray, pray to some other character. Young also said this: Now to the facts in the case; all the difference between Jesus Christ and any other man that ever lived on the earth, from the days of Adam until now, is simply this, the Father, after He had once been in the flesh, and lived as we live, obtained His exaltation, attained to thrones, gained the ascendancy over principalities and powers, and had the knowledge and power to create-to bring forth and organize the elements upon natural principles. This He did after His ascension, or His glory, or His eternity, and was actually classed with the Gods, with the beings who create, with those who have kept the celestial law while in the flesh, and again obtained their bodies. Then He was prepared to commence the work of creation, as the Scriptures teach. It is all here in the Bible; I am not telling you a word but what is contained in that book. Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth. This is the origin of the Mormon concept of great numbers of spirit babies, sired by God, that oblige Mormon women to provide earthly bodies for.
In Mormon theology God the Father and God the Son, i.e. Jesus Christ, are two distinct persons each with glorified perfect bodies of flesh and blood. The body of God looks human in appearance but is perfect beyond description. Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and created the world. God is the father of Jesus’’ spirit body but also is the literal father of Jesus’’ physical body. Mormons believe in the physical resurrection of Christ and that after his resurrection his spirit and physical bodies reunited and he is the living head of the Church. Mormons believe that in the Great Apostasy the Priesthood of Christ was lost. In fact, at the time of Christ’’s resurrection there was no Priesthood connected to or associated with Christ or any of his Apostles or followers.
Although Mormon theology contains some elements of Christianity it is not Christian theology nor does it reflect Christian understandings of the nature of God and Christ. In addition nor does it reflect Christian history. Indeed it is diametrically opposed to what is known historically about Christianity. Joseph Smith said to his followers ““Ye are the children of Israel and of the seed of Abraham.”” Mormonism can best be understood as a fourth Abrahamic faith.
Joseph Smith and Muhammed
Joseph Smith and Muhammed each claimed to be the last, not merely the latest, but the last Prophet of God. Each created a Holy Book to support his claim and a new religion to implement his claim in the world. In creating the Koran Muhammed plagiarized extensively from the Old Testament of the Bible. In fact of the twenty five Prophets of Islam twenty two are in the Bible including Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph, Isaac, Jacob and Jesus. In creating the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith also borrowed extensively from the Bible. But in addition he wrote an incredible fable of the migration of Jewish tribes to the New World 600 years before Christ. Muhammed and Joseph Smith each believed that his religion would one day control the entire world. from them every fingertip.’’
In the words of David Bigler, author of the book The Forgotten Kingdom; The Mormon Theocracy in the American West 1847-1896 (Utah State University Press, 1998) the grandiose goals of the Mormons were as follows: "Accepting any suffering or hardship, its people set out to accomplish an incredibly ambitious and confrontational purpose. This was to sweep away all other nations of the world and make ready for the coming of the Lord, and to do this within their own lifetimes. ““For the destiny of the Mormon kingdom was to roll forth to world dominion, to prevail over the kingdoms of the earth, as a condition of Christ’’s return to inaugurate his millennial reign.”” "
Both Muhammed and Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by Angels. In the case of Muhammed it was the Angel Gabriel who, not coincidentally was the Angel in the Gospel of Luke who told Mary of the coming birth of Jesus. In the case of Smith it was the Angel Moroni who in the Book of Mormon had been a member of one of the Jewish tribes that had come to the New World so many years before Christ.
Islam and Mormonism both experienced succession crises on the death of the founder. In Islam the succession went to Abu Bakr a close follower of Muhammed and not to a family member Ali, husband of Fatima Muhammed’’s daughter. This led to the split in Islam to the Sunni and Shia traditions. In the case of Joseph Smith the succession went to a close follower of Smith, Brigham Young, and not to Smith’s son Joseph Smith III. The Church split into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The latter movement in 2001 became the Community of Christ a Christian denomination.
Joseph Smith was well aware of the life of Muhammed and the ““Sword of Islam.”” In a sworn affidavit a close follower of Smith,Thomas B. Marsh, made the following comments:
“The Prophet inculcates the notion, and it is believed by every true Mormon, that Smith's prophecies are superior to the laws of the land. I have heard the Prophet say that he would yet tread down his enemies, and walk over their dead bodies; and if he was not let alone, he would be a second Mohammed to this generation, and that he would make it one gore of blood from the Rocky mountains to the Atlantic ocean; that like Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was, 'the Alcoran or the Sword.' So should it be eventually with us, 'Joseph Smith or the Sword.'
In 1847 Brigham Young moved with his followers to what is now known as Utah, then part of Mexico, established his Kingdom of God on earth and named it Deseret. He claimed land from the Rocky Mountains in present day Colorado to the Sierra Nevada in California. The violence associated with the Mormon Church disappeared after this fifty year theocracy in Utah, from 1847 -1896. The better part of this period was characterized by violence and rebellion against federal officials and indeed against the authority of the United States government. In 1857 President Buchanan sent federal troops to Utah to put done the rebellion against the United States government. In May,1862 the War Department of the United States government ordered a regiment of troops from California under the command or Colonel Connor to Utah territory to protect the overland mail route. General Halleck, commanding officer of the U.S. army in Washington D.C issued the following order to Connor: "all arms and military munitions intended for use against the authority of the United States are liable for seizure." Coming just three years after the remnants of the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre had been viewed by U.S. troops, it is clear that this order was directed at the Mormon rebellion and not protecting the overland mail route. Colonel Connor, soon to become General Connor, established his camp on the heights above Salt Lake City with his guns trained on the city below. Brigham Young ordered his Navoo Legion to bring canon in to protect the city and his house. Fortunately Connor's guns and Young's cannon trained on each other were never fired. In 1896 the Mormon Church gave up polygamy and made other concessions in its political and theological structures in order to became a State in the United States of America.
That is the one I was looking for when I posted from Galatians.
It is like when you read “John the disciple Jesus loved”. Is that to say he did not love any of the others? Who knows if the 12 actually had a leader other than Christ.
You are not to post me please remove!
I hope you didn't leave a comma out: Be mystified, no mre!
I've never had one, but I am hungry.
Oh, and thanks for the info
Here's a real good overview of the Scriptures we're discussing.
By the way, #20 and #21 list some excellent resources for you. And on the difference between "sur" (God as rock) and "kepha" (the name Jesus gave to Simon Bar-Jonah), this one is fascinating..
God bless you.
On the basis of all that, if they want to call themselves Christian, I would call them Christian.
However, they believe the Father and Jesus Christ are separate personages. And they do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity, that is, the Nicene Creed. On the basis of this, I suspect the same people who claim the Mormons are not Christian will call the JWs not Christian.
That is my present take on the matter. If I have distorted the JW position, I am open to correction.
Thou shalt not kill isn’t in their vocabulary apparently. And by the looks of things, thou shall not covet is out the window too. If they took the ten commandments seriously, they wouldn’t be suicidal perverts waiting to behead the next infidel for Allah and Muhammed’s tome, the Koran.
LOL! Well, I recognize a rhetorical question when I see it. :-)
You, 7, responded with: Oh really? Then please explain why we teach thus (and proceeded to cite Mosiah 16:10-13 & 3 Nephi 26:4-5).
Then your conclusion was: So either you are not aware of our teachings and misspoke, or intentionally misled with that post. I would like to think it is the former...
I find this absolutely humorous on numerous veins!!!
(1) First, you might want to inform DelphiUser that there's quite a few parallel passages between the Gospels and the BoM; it seemed to be under the impression that wasn't the case.
(2) I found it ironic that you cite 3 Nephi! Somehow, you've come to the false understanding that what is revealed in the BoM = automatic "teachings" by LDS General Authorities. (I'm sorry to break the news to you...I could go on & on about how that's not the case. But suffice it for now, allow me to point out a few examples...using 3 Nephi, of course).
Please review this passage from 3 Nephi 19 and then tell me what OBVIOUS "revelation" here has YET to be imported into LDS "teachings" (Here, I'll make it VERY EASY for you by highlighting what I mean):
"...he..commanded them that they should kneel down...that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth....he commanded his disciples that they should pray. And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray UNTO Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God...Father...they believe in me...and they pray UNTO ME...he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray UNTO HIM...And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray UNTO HIM; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them...And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray...And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, UNTO HIM; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were white, even as Jesus." (3 Nephi 19:16-18,22,24-26, 30)
For those reading this who don't yet understand the implications of the above...well LDS general authorities teach that you don't pray directly to Jesus...You pray directly to Heavenly Father (in Jesus' name). So the LDS Jesus is only an LDS conduit, NOT a recipient of DIRECT prayer.
So the big irony hear is that 7bak jumps all over my case for saying that LDS gloss over John 5:29 (and probably they gloss over 3 Nephi 26:4-5 equally as much!!!) just because this same concept is found in 3 Nephi 26. But direct prayer to Jesus is found in 3 Nephi 19...but that, too, is glossed over by LDS!!!
[I think I could teach an entire class of: Book of Mormon passages glossed right over by Mormons]
(3) Final example (for now): 7bak thinks that just because it's in the BoM it automatically = LDS teachings, and we're all supposed to know that LDS don't gloss over their own teachings. Therefore, according to him, I misspeak--either I'm an intentional misleader or I'm ignorant, and he thinks I'm the latter.
Well, I've copied JoshM99 for a very specific purpose. I want to reference 4 of his phrases from this thread. I want to do so because I want you to see the "evolution" of his theology about directly worshipping Jesus.
In post 199, he says: Further, for the record, the LDS doctrine is that one worships God the Father, through his Son, Jesus Christ, and no one else...
Conclusion? Only direct worship of God the Father and indirect worship of Jesus allowed (like their concept of prayer)
In post 299, he says: LDS doctrine does not teach to worship Jesus Christ...
Conclusion? Nope, NO worship of Jesus Christ!
In post 329, he says: I will only add that in worshiping Christ, it is not in alternative of worshiping His Father. The focus is still on God the Father...
Conclusion? Well, now that if you've pointed out passages about directly worshipping Christ can be found in 3 Nephi (11:17; 17:10; along with 4 Nephi 4:37 & 2 Nephi 25:29), well, OK, I guess we can worship Christ...just so long as it doesn't dilute our worship of the Father, whose the main focus.
In post 361, he says: ...yes, in worshiping God and Jesus, who is God’s son, you can say the LDS worship more than one god...
So, note the "evolution" of beliefs: JoshM has gone from worshipping the Father thru Jesus--and no ONE else...(LDS keep telling us that Jesus is a different ONE than the Father)...(monotheism) to "Yup we worship BOTH gods!" (polytheism)
But, beyond that, to get back to why this goes HERE in my response: JoshM99 is a "perfect" illustration to my point. Apparently, there are indeed many LDS who gloss over passages like 3 Nephi 11:17; 17:10; 4 Nephi 4:37; 2 Nephi 25:29 about directly worshipping Christ. If I point to Heb. 1:6 about directly worshipping Christ, and then say LDS gloss over it, it won't help Sevenbak to cite these above BoM passages and say I misspeak and mislead 'cause I'm ignorant...'cause frankly MANY, MANY LDS are in the dark about DIRECTLY worshipping and praying to Jesus!!!
Some of these can't be answered properly with a simple yes or no question, but I'll try to.
Do mormons believe the following...
Jesus was married
No.
From an LDS Church spokesman shortly before the release of the movie The Da Vinci Code, but after the book. Many members and non-members alike were asking about this because of the popularity of the book.
“The belief that Christ was married has never been official Church doctrine. It is neither sanctioned nor taught by the Church. While it is true that a few Church leaders in the mid-1800s expressed their opinions on the matter, it was not then, and is not now, Church doctrine.”
Note also that some LDS Church members are not the only people that have had that opinion.
Me personally as LDS? I do not believe that he was, but I also think that it may have been possible for various reasons, just not important enough for it to be included in any writings.
Jesus and Satan are brothers
No, not in the way you are asking the question.
LDS belief is that we are ALL spirit brothers and sisters so by that it includes Christ, Lucifer, you, me, everyone. This is very much a Biblical concept.
With some research you will find that many Christian Scholars also had the same view that in spirit ALL are Children of God thus by that plainly stated Christ and Lucifer are considered brothers in this sense.
Jesus Christ is the ONLY Begotten Son of God however. In earthly terms Jesus and Lucifer are not brothers the same as you and I are not, nor am I Christ's brother.
God was married to Mary and Jesus was concieved through sexual intercourse between them
No.
In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife
To be completely honest I don't know how to answer this one.
Lets take earthly polygamy off the table completely first of all as the LDS Church now condemns polygamy. Even in nations that polygamy is legal it is still an ex-communicatable offense in the LDS Church.
That being said, it is true that the LDS church believes marriage in the temple is eternal. After death a man and wife will be rejoined in heaven. But what happens if a man and woman are married in the temple and the woman dies later. The man gets remarried in the temple. Are both marriages eternal or does the second or first cancel out the other?
What happens if the man dies and the woman remarries. Does that mean that the woman will have *gasp* two husbands?
This is a quandry that even if the whole polygamy thing didn't happen to taint the issue one wrestles with.
What it comes down to basically in my thought is whatever. It's after we're dead so it really doesn't matter here now does it. That's a question I'll be sure to ask after I die. Either way it won't effect me personally as even if my wife dies before me I won't get remarried.
The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere
Yes
Don't have much else to say about that other then it is possible. Given that the Great Flood covered all of the Earth the Garden of Eden could have been anywhere on Earth (except the frozen poles) and still compatible with the Bible. But just because it's Mormon doctrine it has to be wrong.
Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow
Now that's just silly. No. I don't even know where that one came from.
Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters
No.
This thought comes from the policy (not doctrine) that LDS Missionaries can't go swimming. This is to prevent accidents and liability.
The sun receives its light from the star Kolob
No. The sun receives its light from the energy released due to the fusion of hydrogen...or was it fission of helium. Blast I can't remember from my Astronomy class.
You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand
Color of hair? No.
Hand shake? Yes. D&C 129. It's quite a short chapter and is part of our scripture canon.
Thanks for the references. I look forward to learning more about the Catholic beliefs regarding the early church. Catholics and Mormons share a belief that a formal church was established by Jesus Christ and Peter was the leader of that church under Jesus Christ. Of course, we do differ in beliefs regarding what happened after Peter.
There are Christians that do not believe a formal church was established by Jesus Christ. While the New Testament is not a history book and does not contain all that the Savior said and did, nor much of what the Apostles did after the Ascension, it contains plenty of evidence that a church was established.
Can you answer the questions inpost #521 yes or no?
I thought not.
See my post #592. In there, I clearly point out that when it's convenient for the apologists, BoM passages = "teachings." But when it's other theological issues, like whether to directly worship or pray to Christ, well, those BoM passages are "glossed over."
And then of course all kinds of other BoM passages that got left in the revelational dustbin after being overtaken by the D&C are likewise downplayed or ignored.
Actually, they were answered quite clearly. Why do you fail to understand the answers?
I have long realized that MY opinions were worth just about nothing.
I’ll let the Word do the talking.
If someone thinks I take things out of context, they can post MORE of the Word around the stuff I’ve posted, to show my error.
If the Word needs to be ‘explianed’ too much, just why would we even need it?
You should at least recommend the KJV since there seems to be great disagreement in the protest churches as to the veracity of the NIV.
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