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Answering the "Replacement Theology" Critics (Part 1)
American Vision ^ | 10/7/2005 | Gary DeMar

Posted on 10/26/2007 9:00:59 PM PDT by topcat54

Replacement theology has become dispensationalism's latest prophetic boogeyman. If you want to end a debate over eschatology, just charge your opponent with holding to replacement theology. What is “replacement theology,” sometimes called “supersessionism,” and why do dispensationalists accuse non-dispensationalists of holding it? Here’s a typical dispensational definition:

Replacement Theology: a theological perspective that teaches that the Jews have been rejected by God and are no longer God’s Chosen People. Those who hold to this view disavow any ethnic future for the Jewish people in connection with the biblical covenants, believing that their spiritual destiny is either to perish or become a part of the new religion that superseded Judaism (whether Christianity or Islam).1

“Replacement theology” is dispensationalism’s trump card in any debate over eschatology because it implies anti-semitism. Hal Lindsey attempted to use this card in his poorly researched and argued The Road to Holocaust.2 He wove an innovative tale implying that anyone who is not a dispensationalist carries the seeds of anti-semitism within his or her prophetic system. This would mean that every Christian prior to 1830 would have been theologically anti-semitic although not personally anti-semtic.

As Peter Leithart and I point out in The Legacy of Hatred Continues,3 it’s dispensationalists who hold to a form of replacement theology since they believe that Israel does not have any prophetic significance this side of the rapture! Prior to the rapture, in terms of dispensational logic, the Church has replaced Israel. This is unquestionably true since God’s prophetic plan for Israel has been postponed until the prophetic time clock starts ticking again at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week which starts only after the Church is taken to heaven in the so-called rapture. Until then, God is dealing redemptively with the Church. Am I making this up? Consider the following by dispensationalist E. Schuyler English:

An intercalary4 period of history, after Christ’s death and resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, has intervened. This is the present age, the Church age. . . . During this time God has not been dealing with Israel nationally, for they have been blinded concerning God’s mercy in Christ. . . . However, God will again deal with Israel as a nation. This will be in Daniel’s seventieth week, a seven-year period yet to come.5

According to English and every other dispensationalist, the Church has replaced Israel until the rapture. The unfulfilled promises made to Israel are not fulfilled until after the Church is taken off the earth. Thomas Ice, one of dispensationalism’s rising stars, admits that the Church replaces Israel this side of the rapture: “We dispensationalists believe that the church has superseded Israel during the current church age, but God has a future time in which He will restore national Israel ‘as the institution for the administration of divine blessings to the world.’”6

Dispensationalists claim that their particular brand of eschatology is the only prophetic system that gives Israel her proper place in redemptive history. This is an odd thing to argue since two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered during the post-rapture tribulation, and the world will be nearly destroyed. Charles Ryrie writes in his book The Best is Yet to Come that during this post-rapture period Israel will undergo “the worst bloodbath in Jewish history.”7 The book’s title doesn’t seem to very appropriate considering that during this period of time most of the Jews will die! John Walvoord follows a similar line of argument: “Israel is destined to have a particular time of suffering which will eclipse any thing that it has known in the past. . . . [T]he people of Israel . . . are placing themselves within the vortex of this future whirlwind which will destroy the majority of those living in the land of Palestine.”8 Arnold Fruchtenbaum states that during the Great Tribulation “Israel will suffer tremendous persecution (Matthew 24:15–28; Revelation 12:1–17). As a result of this persecution of the Jewish people, two-thirds are going to be killed.”9

During the time when Israel seems to be at peace with the world, she is really under the domination of the antichrist who will turn on her at the mid-point in the seven-year period. Israel waits more than 2000 years for the promises finally to be fulfilled, and before it happens, two-thirds of them are wiped out. Those who are charged with holding a “replacement theology viewpoint” believe in no inevitable future Jewish bloodbath. In fact, we believe that the Jews will inevitably embrace Jesus as the Messiah this side of the Second Coming. The fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8 is a past event. It may have had its fulfillment in the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Contrary to dispensationalism’s interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus' disciples warned the Jewish nation for nearly forty years about the impending judgment (Matt. 3:7; 21:42–46; 22:1–14; 24:15–22). Those who believed Jesus’ words of warning were delivered “from the wrath to come” (1 Thess. 1:10). Those who continued to reject Jesus as the promised Messiah, even though they had been warned for a generation (Matt. 24:34), “wrath has come upon them to the utmost” (1 Thess. 2:16; cf. 1 Thess. 5:1–11; 2 Pet. 3:10–13).

Before critics of replacement theology throw stones, they need to take a look at their own prophetic system and see its many lapses in theology and logic.

Read Part Two of this article...


1. Randall Price, Unholy War: America, Israel and Radical Islam (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 2001), 412.

2. Hal Lindsey, The Road to Holocaust (New York: Bantam Books, 1989). The address for Bantam Books is 666 Fifth Avenue, New York, New York.

3. Gary DeMar and Peter J. Leithart, The Legacy of Hatred Continues: A Response to Hal Lindsey’s The Road to Holocaust (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 1989).

4. Inserted into the calendar.

5. E. Schuyler English, A Companion to the New Scofield Reference Bible (New York: Oxford University Press, 1972), 135.

6. Thomas Ice, “The Israel of God,” The Thomas Ice Collection: www.raptureready.com/featured/TheIsraelOfGod.html#_edn3

7. Charles C. Ryrie, The Best is Yet to Come (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1981), 86.

8. John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1962), 107, 113. Emphasis added.

9. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, “The Little Apocalypse of Zechariah,” The End Times Controversy: The Second Coming Under Attack, eds. Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 2003), 262.


Gary DeMar is president of American Vision and the author of more than 20 books. His latest is Myths, Lies, and Half Truths.

Permission to reprint granted by American Vision P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: arafat; covenants; dispensationalism; eschatology; replacementtheology; wtf
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To: Blogger
I was very disturbed by what Hagee said.

Good.

I also did additional research and understand what he meant.

I've read Hagee's statement (more likely written by a press and publicity minion). It looks like spin to me. I think when Rev. Hagee did the ad and wrote the book he said exactly what he wanted to say, and it didn't sound at all strange to him or anyone around him.

It isn’t dispensationalism that is fueling this.

This is the kind of thing you get when your theology says there's a different plan for Israel, separate from the gentile ekklesia. This is the kind of thing I expect to hear from people who have an obsession with Israel-according-to-the-flesh, and the benefits that supposedly accrue to them separate from the gospel ("they get the land, man!""So?").

God's not going back to dealing with Israel once the church is off the scene. From the incarnation on out, nothing is the same. How could it be? God's plan for Israel is that they be saved, in the same way we are, grafted back into the same metaphorical tree we're grafted into, in the fullness of God's time.

They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

He doesn't mention the land. I wonder why that is? Maybe because the enumerated advantages mean that Paul doesn't have to lecture for a week getting his audience up to speed before he can get to Jesus.

1,741 posted on 11/24/2007 8:52:35 AM PST by Lee N. Field ("Is not the day of the LORD darkness, and not light, and gloom with no brightness in it?")
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To: Uncle Chip; Iscool; wmfights; topcat54; 1000 silverlings; Lord_Calvinus; Alex Murphy; ...
You Baptists have an excellent preacher in Spurgeon. You should read him more often. You'll find that the true Israel of God are those whom God has graced with faith, all believing Jews and gentiles, and that this is not a new "replacement theory," but Biblical truth...

CHRIST'S PASTORAL PRAYER FOR HIS PEOPLE
September 1, 1889
by Charles H. Spurgeon
(1834-1892)  

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."—John 17:9-10.

To begin with, I remark that our Lord Jesus pleads for his own people. When he puts on his priestly breastplate, it is for the tribes whose names are there. When he presents the atoning sacrifice, it is for Israel whom God hath chosen; and he utters this great truth, which some regard as narrow, but which we adore, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world." The point to which I want to call attention is this, the reason why Christ prays not for the world, but for his people. He puts it, "For they are thine," as if they wore all the dearer to him because they were the Father's: "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine." We might have half thought that Jesus would have said, "They are mine, and therefore I pray for them." It would have been true; but there would not have been the beauty of truth about it which we have here. He loves us all the better, and he prays for us all the more fervently, because we are the Father's. Such is his love to his Father, that our being the Father's sheds upon us an extra halo of beauty. Because we belong to the Father, therefore does the Savior plead for us with all the greater earnestness at the throne of the heavenly grace.

But this leads us on to remember that our Lord had undertaken suretyship engagements on account of his people; he undertook to preserve the Father's gift: "Those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost." He looked upon the sheep of his pasture as belonging to his Father, and the Father had put them into his charge, saying to him, "Of thine hand will I require them." As Jacob kept his uncle's flocks, by day the heat devoured him, and at night the frost but he was more careful over them because they were Laban's than if they had been his own; he was to give in an account of all the sheep committed to him, and he did so, and he lost none of Laban's sheep; but his care over them was partly accounted for by the fact that they did not belong to himself, but belonged to his uncle Laban.

Understand this twofold reason, then, for Christ's pastoral prayer for his people. He first prays for them because they belong to the Father, and therefore have it peculiar value in his eye; and next, because they belong to the Father, he is under suretyship engagements to deliver them all to the Father in that last great day when the sheep shall pass under the rod of him that telleth them. Now you see where I am bringing you tonight. I am not going to preach at this time to the world any more than Christ upon this occasion prayed for the world; but I am going to preach to his own people as he in this intercessory prayer pleaded for them. I trust that they will all follow me, step by step, through this great theme; and I pray the Lord that, in these deep central truths of the gospel we may find real refreshment for our souls to-night.

I. In calling your attention to my text, I want you to notice, first, THE INTENSITY OF THE SENSE OF PROPERTY WHICH CHRIST HAS IN HIS PEOPLE.

Here are six words selling forth Christ's property in those who are saved: "Them which thou hast given me"—(that is one); "for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." There are certain persons so precious to Christ that they are marked all over with special tokens that they belong to him; as I have known it man write his name in a book which he has greatly valued, and then he has turned over some pages, and he has written his name again; and as we have sometimes known persons, when they have highly valued a thing, to put their mark, their seal, their stamp, here, there, and almost everywhere upon it. So, notice in my text how the Lord seems to have the seal in his hand, and he stamps it all over his peculiar possession: "They are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine." It is all possessive pronouns, to show that God looks upon his people as his portion, his possession, his property. "They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I makeup my jewels." Every man has something or other which he values above the rest of his estate; and here the Lord, by so often reiterating the words which signify possession, proves that he values his people above everything. Let us show that we appreciate this privilege of being set apart unto God; and let us each one say to him—  


"Take my poor heart, and let it be
For ever closed to all but thee!
Seal thou my breast, and let me wear
That pledge of love for ever there."

..."


1,742 posted on 11/24/2007 9:41:41 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: fortheDeclaration; Iscool; Uncle Chip

“By the way, the NIV translation also has earth, not land.”

By the way, once again, the NIV translation of Zechariah has “land,” not “earth”:

Zechariah 12:10-12: “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives...”

Matthew 24:30: “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.”

Revelation 1:7: Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

Do you or do you not see the similarities among the above passages?

And, again, compare those with the fact that Jesus told Caiaphus he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds:

Mark 14:62: “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

As much as one may like to ignore the fact that they all fit together, one can’t if what they really want is the truth above all else.


1,743 posted on 11/24/2007 11:19:22 AM PST by tabsternager
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To: fortheDeclaration
Don't the Amill's simply skip the millennial reign and move right into the eternal one-the New Heavens, New Earth, New Jerusalem?

You would need to ask one.

1,744 posted on 11/24/2007 1:16:47 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- an error of Biblical proportions.")
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To: Lee N. Field

I didn’t read the statement. I heard him interviewed. He’s still wrong, but it isn’t like what it sounded like.

as for Israel. I do not see how someone can read the Old Testament and somehow get that God’s plan for Israel and her land was either 1)already fulfilled or., 2)conditional. MULTIPLE Old Testament verses say that God is going to bring her into her land for His own name’s sake and in SPITE of her unfaithfulness. We are seeing this fulfilled today. He would make her deserts bloom. We are seeing this. She would supply fruit to the world. She is doing that. And ultimately,Zechariah shows she will finally get it and accept Christ as Messiah. God’s promises are irrevocable. And, it is by GRACE that Israel will receive what was promised.

Was just reading Ezekiel 36-37 last night by the way. Suggest you read again.


1,745 posted on 11/24/2007 3:37:43 PM PST by Blogger (Propheteuon.com)
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To: wmfights
Have you become a Calvinist?

I am a theoretical Arminian and a practical Calvinist.

1,746 posted on 11/24/2007 11:40:16 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: topcat54
Don't the Amill's simply skip the millennial reign and move right into the eternal one-the New Heavens, New Earth, New Jerusalem?

You would need to ask one.

Sorry, forgot, you are a postmillennial guy-so you weren't know what the amill's teach.

But thanks for the thoughtful answer-shows are real Christian spirit.

1,747 posted on 11/25/2007 4:27:03 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: tabsternager; Quix
[“By the way, the NIV translation also has earth, not land.”]

By the way, once again, the NIV translation of Zechariah has “land,” not “earth”:

What does Matthew 24:30 say in every translation?

Zechariah 12:10-12: “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives...”

It also states that the Jews would see Christ whom they pierced and mourn that they had rejected Him.

That didn't happen.

[ Matthew 24:30: “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.” Revelation 1:7: Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. ]

Do you or do you not see the similarities among the above passages?

What I see in those passages is Christ being seen by the entire world which didn't happen.

A 5th grader could read that and point that out.

And, again, compare those with the fact that Jesus told Caiaphus he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds: Mark 14:62: “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” As much as one may like to ignore the fact that they all fit together, one can’t if what they really want is the truth above all else.

And what you have to realize is that you can't ignore what the passage says to make it fit into your own theology.

The world did not see Christ on 70AD.

The Jews did not convert in 70AD.

God did not destroy the nations (note the plural) going against Jerusalem (Zech.13:9) And when Christ comes back He is coming the way He left, standing not sitting (Acts.1:9).

Caiphaius will see Christ sitting on the right hand of power, when he faces Christ at the judgment seat.

The obstacle that the preterists face is not the Scofield notes, it is the clear readings found in the Bible.

You simply ignore whatever scripture says that goes against what your false theological system teaches you.

1,748 posted on 11/25/2007 4:40:51 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: P-Marlowe; wmfights
I am a theoretical Arminian and a practical Calvinist.

You're trending in the right direction.

That's postmillennialism! 8~)

1,749 posted on 11/25/2007 10:26:15 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: P-Marlowe
I am a theoretical Arminian and a practical Calvinist.

I'm having so much trouble figuring this eschatology stuff out and have so many notes to go back and review in Scripture, I don't want to try and figure what you mean. ;-0

1,750 posted on 11/25/2007 12:25:28 PM PST by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; All; Uncle Chip; fortheDeclaration

IN BEHALF OF ALL THE REPLACEMENTARIANS SOOOOOOOOO . . .

convinced

that the world is getting better and better; more peaceful; more holy; more saintly; more calm; more serene; more righteous . . . such that any day the rocks and hills will leap in blissful joy with the little lamb crooning and nuzzling with the sweet lions . . .

This from:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071125/sc_afp/britainweatherclimate

################

Sun Nov 25, 9:33 AM ET

LONDON (AFP) - More than four times the number of natural disasters are occurring now than did two decades ago, British charity Oxfam said in a study Sunday that largely blamed global warming.

ADVERTISEMENT

“Oxfam... says that rising green house gas emissions are the major cause of weather-related disasters and must be tackled,” the organisation said, adding that the world’s poorest people were being hit the hardest.

The world suffered about 120 natural disasters per year in the early 1980s, which compared with the current figure of about 500 per year, according to the report.

“This year we have seen floods in South Asia, across the breadth of Africa and Mexico that have affected more than 250 million people,” noted Oxfam director Barbara Stocking.

“This is no freak year. It follows a pattern of more frequent, more erratic, more unpredictable and more extreme weather events that are affecting more people.”

She added: “Action is needed now to prepare for more disasters otherwise humanitarian assistance will be overwhelmed and recent advances in human development will go into reverse.”

The number of people affected by extreme natural disasters, meanwhile, has surged by almost 70 percent, from 174 million a year between 1985 to 1994, to 254 million people a year between 1995 to 2004, Oxfam said.

Floods and wind-storms have increased from 60 events in 1980 to 240 last year, with flooding itself up six-fold.

But the number of geothermal events, such as earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, has barely changed.

Oxfam urged Western governments to push hard for a deal on climate change at a key international meeting that runs December 3-14 on the Indonesian island of Bali.

Rich Western nations and the United Nations must act to “make humanitarian aid faster, fairer and more flexible and to improve ways to prepare for and reduce the risk of disasters,” it said.

The United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change conference in Bali aims to see countries agree to launch a roadmap for negotiating cuts in climate-changing carbon emissions from 2012.

The Oxfam study was compiled using data from the Red Cross, the United Nations and specialist researchers at Louvain University in Belgium.

##################

BTW, for those with rubber calculators as well as rubber Bibles, rubber histories, rubber dictionaries and rubber logic books . . .

A QUADRUPLE INCREASE

is . . . well . . . a SIGNIFICANT INCREASE.

. . . not a minor statisical fluke . . . just in case some were tempted to stretch their rubber calculators in THAT direction.


1,751 posted on 11/25/2007 10:24:12 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix; All

Another clarification for the reality challenged REPLACEMENTARIAN perspective . . .

A QUATRUPLE INCREASE

is

W O R S E.

As in from bad to WORSE.

as in NOT happier and more blissful.

as in NOT more serene and gentle.

as in NOT more fun and restful.

. . .


1,752 posted on 11/25/2007 10:29:09 PM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix
that the world is getting better and better; more peaceful; more holy; more saintly; more calm; more serene; more righteous . . . such that any day the rocks and hills will leap in blissful joy with the little lamb crooning and nuzzling with the sweet lions . . .

Now Quix, lets not disturb them with reality, fantasy is so much more soothing.

1,753 posted on 11/25/2007 10:55:42 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Now Quix, lets not disturb them with reality, fantasy is so much more soothing.

UNTIL

THE

WAKE-UP
CALL
!

1,754 posted on 11/26/2007 3:32:28 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: fortheDeclaration

“What does Matthew 24:30 say in every translation?”

My understanding is the Greek word “ge” can either mean “earth,” “country,” or “land.” Since Matthew is speaking of “tribes” and taken in context of both Zechariah 12 and Revelation 1:7, it therefore means Israel.

“It also states that the Jews would see Christ whom they pierced and mourn that they had rejected Him.

That didn’t happen.”

Oh, yes, it did. All the tribes mourned over the judgment that had come to them, and they knew that Jesus is the Christ.

Matthew 23:37-39 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Much as dispensationalists would like to wrench the above last sentence from the rest, it is clear what Jesus was referring to and the last verse implies acknowledgement.

“And what you have to realize is that you can’t ignore what the passage says to make it fit into your own theology.”

The only ones on this thread trying to make scripture fit into their own theology are dispensationalists. You gave several good examples, such as cherry picking Matthew 24:30 and ignoring both the rest of Matthew 24, Christ’s words to Caiaphas, and Zechariah 12.

That may be a good way to reinforce your own fantasy about the future but a bad way to find the truth.


1,755 posted on 11/26/2007 5:28:13 AM PST by tabsternager
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To: tabsternager; fortheDeclaration; Uncle Chip

Matthew 23:37-39 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

= = =

So, the Contrarian Preterist; Replacementarian; Alice-in-Wonderland School of Rubber Theology

has the brazen audacity to foist on a snickering public that the above Scripture already happened in what 70AD???

GTTM

GTTM ROTFLOL

LOL TO THE MAX

Mind Boggling.

No wonder atheism is advancing so rapidly. Amazing rubber logic.

I’ve heard of grasping at straws but this is grasping at fog.


1,756 posted on 11/26/2007 5:44:55 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Iscool
You Baptists have an excellent preacher in Spurgeon. You should read him more often. You'll find that the true Israel of God are those whom God has graced with faith, all believing Jews and gentiles, and that this is not a new "replacement theory," but Biblical truth...

Perhaps I missed it, but just where does Spurgeon in your above quote say that "all believing Jews and gentiles" are the "Israel of God"??? If I remember correctly, Spurgeon believed that the Jews would be regathered back into the Land of Israel according to the scriptures.

1,757 posted on 11/26/2007 6:51:18 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Iscool; wmfights; Uncle Chip; Dr. Eckleburg
I don't know how anyone could miss this...But you did... You clearly have two groups of dead people here...However, only one group is in the ground...Buried...Graves...What are the other dead people doing??? THEY'RE SPIRITUAL...Look at the last sentence you cited here...She's alive but she's dead... There are not two physical resurrections here...The first one is referring to people dead 'in Christ', but alive physically...

I didn't miss it and that is the point. The first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection. The second resurrection is a physical one. What makes you think that the first one is suppose to be physical when, even John notes in his Apocalapse that he didn't see people alive in their bodies, but beheaded souls?

You see, this is what is so insane sometimes about Dispensationalism. They see a verse which clearly indicates that John sees souls, not people, and Dispensationalists run to claim it must be a physical resurrection. We'll examine your cited portion in a minute, but I feel the need to address something else you said before looking at it.

The 'first' resurrection has three parts to it...The firstfruits, the Harvest, and the gleanings... The Harvest has not taken place yet...And how do I know??? Because we are not yet in Heaven... The Harvest is the church...

You couldn't be more wrong that we are not ALREADY in heaven....

I didn't missing anything because the first resurrection is not a physical one; it is a spiritual one. When Christ was raised up and seated, we were all raised up and seated with him. We, well, at least some of us, rule and reign right now. The rest of you seem to be star gazing or something waiting for a sign of the coming of the kingdom of God, even though the Lord himself testifies that the kingdom does not come with observation.

We are in heaven RIGHT NOW and you missed it because you don't know how to properly read and interpret Scripture. It clearly says that we are seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus while you wait for a secret rapture which isn't going to come to spirit you away. You are safe at home right now.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Is this you, or anyone you know??? You really believe you are in the (2000 year, so far) Millenium???

To answer your questions, yes and yes.

You need to take note that John sees psuchas, souls, not living breathing in the flesh people. And, more importantly, John sees souls that were beheaded dia tan marturian, literally on account of the witness of Jesus and on account of the word of God. It is these people who lived and reigned. Note that the common theme in ALL the passages I've cited is that the people who came alive are all described in some spiritual sense, not a physical sense.

John 5: I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
Eph 2: when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
John 11: “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

I guess my ultimate rebuttal to you is I don't know how anyone could miss this... But you did...

Every instance of the first resurrection spoken of in the Bible is not spoken of in the sense of a physical resurrection. The language is remarkably similar. The dead will hear and live. He who lives and believes shall never die. And he who has a part in the first resurrection is immune to the second death.

Here is something else you havent' noticed: The beaheding on account of the witness of Jesus is not this physical beheading that Dispensationalists love to believe; it is a removal of the head of authority, i.e. Satan. On account of the witness of Jesus our head has been removed and we now have a new head, Jesus.

1,758 posted on 11/26/2007 8:30:08 AM PST by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Lord_Calvinus; wmfights; topcat54; Alex Murphy; Lee N. Field; 1000 silverlings; tabsternager; ...
Eph 2: But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

I didn't missing anything because the first resurrection is not a physical one; it is a spiritual one. When Christ was raised up and seated, we were all raised up and seated with him. We, well, at least some of us, rule and reign right now. The rest of you seem to be star gazing or something waiting for a sign of the coming of the kingdom of God, even though the Lord himself testifies that the kingdom does not come with observation.

We are in heaven RIGHT NOW and you missed it because you don't know how to properly read and interpret Scripture. It clearly says that we are seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus while you wait for a secret rapture which isn't going to come to spirit you away. You are safe at home right now.

Before I even finish reading your post, I want to AMEN! this portion.

The current reign of Christians in this world is the most subversive truth on earth. No wonder the reprobates of this world work so hard to keep that fact from those who are His.

But the earth and everything on the earth were made by, for and through Jesus Christ. And since we are in Christ, the world, too, is ours.

You are safe at home right now.

AMEN!

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." -- Matthew 28:18-20

Lately I've thought that dispensationalism tends to obscure the work of the Holy Spirit almost to the point of denying it. God is on earth and Christ is on earth because the Holy Spirit is on earth and leading God's children in all truth and love. That realization should be our number one reality. God is here today, with us, leading us, indwelling us, motivating us, protecting us, equipping us for the work on this earth today.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." -- Matthew 16:18

We let the Catholics commandeer this verse and so we Protestants tend to ignore it when we should be exalting it.

The church of Jesus Christ is real and it is on earth and it is growing by the perfect leading of the Holy Spirit as it does the work of the sower until the harvest.

It's a wheat field; not a tare field.

1,759 posted on 11/26/2007 9:48:18 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Quix; tabsternager; topcat54; Lord_Calvinus; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; 1000 silverlings
UNTIL THE WAKE-UP CALL !

The wake-up call came on the cross at Calvary.

"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent" -- Matthew 27:51

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'" -- Matthew 23:37-39


1,760 posted on 11/26/2007 10:05:50 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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