Posted on 09/24/2007 3:11:29 PM PDT by presidio9
A new article by an Italian medical professor speculates the death of Pope John Paul the Second was caused by euthanasia. According to "TIME" magazine, an intensive care specialist says the Pope's death would be considered euthanasia by standards set by the Catholic Church. The doctor bases her conclusion on press reports and a book written by the Pope's physician. She says the decision not to insert a feeding tube until just a few days before his death accelerated the death of the ailing pontiff. Plus, the doctor believes the Pope himself made the decision not to insert the tube after consulting with medical professionals. He had been hospitalized twice before his 2005 death. Catholics are told to take any effort to prolong life. The article appears in an Italian magazine critical of the church's stance on medical ethics. The doctor says she decided to revisit the Pope's death after a recent ruling by the Catholic Church on euthanasia.
My mom was put on hospice on a Friday and she begged for a coconut junior, her favorite. Then ice cream, another favorite. Hospice told us food makes it more painful but if requested then give it. She couldn’t hold it down of course but thought she enjoyed it. She even said, “wow I ate that whole coconut junior” lol. She didn’t of course but the morphine was working by then. The next night, she told one of my kids she wanted chocolate candy, and she brought her a piece, which she ended up spitting a minute or so later but said how much she enjoyed it. The morning of the night she died, my one little one wakes me up saying Mom Mom needs you. I rush into her and she says, I want coffee, you gonna make coffee. So I made it and we fed her a teaspoon which she immediately spit up but thought she drank and commented on how good it was.
Since she was placed on hospice on a Friday, and we basically just did phone calls, the nurse on call on Sunday sent out a nurse on Sunday night just to see/ease our concerns. I asked that nurse point blank how long (and she looked at my husband and said does she really want to know, and he said, she’s the boss) and told me she thought she’d be back later that night since she thought my mom only had a few hours left. I thought that too and just wanted it confirmed. I needed to get the rest of the family here even though I called everyone Sunday morning because I knew she wouldn’t make it until Monday. Unfortunately, only a close friend took me seriously and got here and spent the afternoon with her. Only one other showed up and it was a minute after she died but he tried to get here before that. The nurse was right and she was back a couple hours later to clean the body, get rid of all the meds, esp. the morphine, etc. She did offer to let me have the sleeping pills but I declined.
So after a long, rambling post, you’re right. People who are dying don’t eat. My mom thought she was eating, had cravings, etc. but didn’t really eat the treats/drink the coffee.
Oops, forgot to add that yes, there are things worse than death. And watching someone in pain be tested and poked and prodded, dragged hither and yon, is hard.
I’m not Catholic but I had a great respect for the Pope. And I look at it this way - do you not think that he was delighted to meet God face to face? Do you think that perhaps one of his last conscious thoughts was about that and how ecstatically happy he was going to be upon meeting him and joining him for eternity? Going on to bigger and better things, as it were?
Your mom was probably the same way.
No, her reasoning is normal. IMO. This is so different than the Terri Schiavo case, which I only truly learned the details a few months ago thanks to posters here.
The Pope was old and had a whole lot wrong with him. He was dying, regardless of medical technology/interventions. My Dad was dying, a feeding tube or respirator or pik or anything else would have only prolonged his natural death. Same with my mom. A few more days or weeks for what? Not for the person dying but for those who can’t let go?
A comparison of anorexics and the Pope is clumsy reasoning imo. He had a slew of medical problems that maybe a feeding tube would have prolonged his life for a few weeks or months. Maybe he was coherent enough to make the decision. I know both my parents were coherent enough and mentioned many times, when it was their time, then they were ready to join Jesus.
It was such a ghastly experience that none of us can talk about it yet. As the weeks went by, each day she got smaller, and somehow, sweeter - like a little child. The feeling of helplessness was unbearable. But you’re right, there was something holy in the air. Can you imagine what it was like at JP II’s deathbed?
Hard to believe that everyone has to go through this in life!
Death from natural causes frequently, at the end, takes away all desire for any food or water. Not starvation, just imminent death.
Vegetative state is not the same; you did a wonderful thing for your mom, letting her die naturally at home, the way she wanted. I commend you...
I read a few articles earlier this month regarding legislation/euthanasia in Italy. I haven’t kept up on it all but this allegation regarding the Pope’s death makes me question this doctor’s motives.
Well I need to go to bed.Freepmail me if you want to talk.You click on private reply and it will come to me.I know a few priests you can call,they will never ask your name,and you can talk.A few are from Priest’s for Life but they will all tell you the same and they will pray for you and your family.There will come a time when you will look back with happy memories,trust me(((Hugs)))Fatima
ticks me off that they waste good ink and good broadband on this story.
You are so nice!! Sleep tight.
No, I don’t see it as a troubling issue at all especially since she was a Catholic. Or a Christian.
Death is a part of life. It’s difficult for me to understand young people dying, tragedies, etc. But they happen all the time.
The Catholic Church does not teach nor has it ever taught that when one is at the end of a long life, or any time of life, that artificial measures to prolong life are a part of doctrine. The Church teaches that euthanasia is wrong, assisted suicide is wrong. It has never taught that when one is dying that all medical interventions should be utilized. Circumstances play a huge role imo. Each situation, case is different. Euthanasia isn’t what the media pretends it to be.
ITA. I was trying to say the say thing.
After the pope's death, she appeared on Larry King Live and sang the beautiful song she sang for the pope, Bread of Angels
Also she sings my favorite version of Ave Maria, the Bach-Gunod? version, at Carnegie hall (you can do a search), but the mike was too harsh and didn't quite do it justice, beautiful none the less. Ave Maria
Hope the links work. AFIAC, the man died as he lived, with honor and dignity. May he rest in peace.
If I understand correctly, there is one source for this story that wasn’t even at the scene of John Paul II’s death. This so-called doctor is proposing their own personal “theory”. That any news source could reprint this nonsense is repugnant and flushes their credibility down the drain. Bye, bye.
IMO, a terminal illness is just that, terminal. Every effort should be made, miracles happen daily and new medical technology/progress, etc. However, it’s up to the individual or family imo.
My husband and I discussed this a few months ago. I was of the viewpoint, death isn’t such a horror but you’ll know what to do. He then said, “you’d want to live, right?” That’s when I knew we need to really discuss this and maybe I need a living will. I trust his judgement in this, he knows me. Of course I want to live, I’m sorta young with 4 kids, but I don’t want to make my last months here miserable for all of us.
I guess I figure, if there’s no hope, if someone even me, has a terminal illness, then for me I would just want to enjoy the time I have left. At my age, I would do everything I could to stay alive/prolong life, since there’s always a chance of some new medical intervention/cure/treatment. On the flip side, maybe there’s a time to let go and let God. I was told after my first, not to have any more children and I’m glad I didn’t listen since I had 3 more. All 4 high risk but hey we’re all here.
I had a biopsy a couple months ago. I’m in great shape, health wise/healthy eating/exercising, etc. I sure don’t want to die anytime soon. My kids are still young. I know many friends who lost parents when they were kids or teens or early 20’s. I want to live to see all my kids graduate high school, college, get married, see and have a relationship with grandbabies, etc. My Mom used to say she wanted to see all my kids get married but she knew she wouldn’t so she just wanted to see them all make their First Communion. She died 6 months after my youngest made her First Communion.
I figure a ‘terminal illness’ is just that, terminal. No matter what one does, one will die anyway and it all depends on how much one wants to prolong it/treatments, etc. Then there’s always those miracles that medical community can’t explain.
Two words: hit piece.
Welcome to FR!
I’m so sorry for what you had to endure. I know the feeling. On the day of my mother’s funeral, my one brother was asked what she died of and he said “morphine overdose” so basically he thinks I killed her. He hadn’t said this to me or when I was in hearing distance but my husband heard it and told me. My husband said, didn’t he accuse you of killing your father too? And he had. No one wanted to make the decisions when my Dad was dying and my mom was incapable - she was ill herself and in ICU the two weeks before he died after major surgery. She was still recovering, only home a couple of days when he was hospitalized the last week of his life.
When I stopped everything (dialysis, etc.) and he died, all I got was accusations about how could you stop dialysis, other stuff, etc. I told them that when mommy was recovering and too drugged up to think clearly and the rest of you were too busy arguing about how it was going to affect all of your schedules, I made a decision to honor my father’s wishes. Same thing with my Mom. She lived with us, and even though my brother had power of attorney and medical power of attorney (which was stupid to me since me and my husband and kids were caring for her but he insisted and I figured I was gonna do what she wanted and to heck with him anyway) he still commented at the funeral to relatives/friends that she died of a morphine overdose. This is the same man who for the last two years of her life barely spent time with her and refused to come the day she was dying because “I love her too much to watch her die” like it was a joy for the rest of us. RME.
My mom was a devout catholic. Something my oldest bro would never understand.
I keep thinking about a living will etc. but trust my husband. At the same time, I’m not sure he’d be able to make the decision. I don’t have one yet but plan on getting one.
When his mom was dying, young - mid 50’s, she had a liver transplant, and a few months later, her body rejected it. His dad and sibs wanted to keep her alive no matter what even after the doctors said she needed another one and probably wouldn’t make it through the surgery - she was in a coma at this point. He called me, and I suggested he try to convince them to do what SHE wanted and knowing her, she was ready. She didn’t even want to have the liver transplant to begin with but did because they wanted her to. We didnt’ have a great relationship or anything because his family is so odd but I really liked her and she told me numerous times she wasn’t afraid of dying/death. It took a week and a half for the other sibs and husband to agree to take her off life support even after the doctors’ told them she was dying/no hope. My husband would call home so out of sorts because of his dad and sibs not wanting to take her off life support. They eventually did and she died minutes later. Sort of makes me glad I didn’t have to deal with that while either of my parents were dying even though I had to after the fact.
I don’t think you saw my post above. He was getting sick on the feeding tube and his doctos stopped it for a couple of days. He then accepted it again on the third day afterwards. Now why would anyone who is being euthanized accept the feeding tube again.
This is a bogus story by a bogus author/doctor who never took care of John Paul II and never even looked at his medical records.
There was a news spot on FoxNews Channel this morning by Father Jonathan Moore disclaiming this entire story.
I will believe Father Jonathan Moore before I will believe this stupid would-be doctor/author and this bogus story.
Please get your facts.
You’re completely wrong on this one and the comparison you used.
She’s equating God’s Will to someone dying from a terminal illness. That’s a whole lot different than someone killing herself/himself by starving oneself by choice - and anorexics starve themselves by choice for whatever reasoning they use.
Game, set, match doesn’t apply in this argument if we’re going the logical route.
Here’s the Catholic position: You are not obligated to take absolutely all measures to delay death. You may not do anything that is intended to cause death.
This means that one may not refuse the use of a feeding tube IN ORDER TO CAUSE DEATH. One may certainly refuse it if use of the tube is itself the cause of serious distress. One may refuse it if death is so near that the dying person is not going to live long enough to starve or die of dehydration.
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