Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[Elsie]

and it’s epidemic!

[MHGinTN]

Flying Inman's secret decoder ... It's a veritable rash don'tchaknow! I wonder if cortisone would help that?...

[MHGinTN]

ping

[Saundra Duffy]

Jesus Christ is my Savior, too. He died for me and I love Him. There is only one Jesus Christ, our Savior.

But thank you for fulfilling prophesy.

[MHGinTN]

Prove it, Mormon.

[Elsie]

You oughta put some ice on that!

[DelphiUser]

Sandra Duffy Said: Jesus Christ is my Savior, too. He died for me and I love Him. There is only one Jesus Christ, our Savior.

But thank you for fulfilling prophesy. MHGinTN Said: Prove it, Mormon.

And I said: ROTFLOL!

OK, the proof comes in three parts.

1. Here is the Prophecy:
   Joseph Smith History

   33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.

   OK, since that was written and published long before you said what you said, it was prophetic, and you just fulfilled it (in part)
   
   Since we are saying Good things about Joseph Smith, we are fulfilling it in part.
   
   
2. Confession of Jesus means you are his.
   1 John. 4: 15

   15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

   Saundra Duffy just confessed her belief in Jesus Christ, so John says she is his (that makes her a Christian).
   
   I too confess (because it is true) that I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord, my God, my Savior, his is the only name under heaven where I can find salvation through his atoning grace. I testify that you to can be saved if you will give up your pride and worldly cares and fallow him who is mighty to save.
   
   
3. MHGinTN you have in many places and at sundry times denied that Mormons are Christians, there is a scripture that was given specifically for those who would judge others.
   Matthew 7:1-5

   1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
   2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
   3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
   4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
   5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
   

   You have no right to judge another's Christianity there is only one Judge in Israel who will judge that, and you are not him.

MHG, earlier, I said you were promoting using "Young's Literal translation of the Greek" and you did not even bother to answer (as you seem never to do with anything that is inconvenient). By quoting from it, and stating that it is more accurate than the KJV, are you not promoting it? I believe you are, thus my statement stands. If you want to prove me wrong, either start quoting from the KJV, or at least state that it does not matter which you quote from.

You seem to have a problem with many of the "tenets" of Mormonism, even when they are exactly Biblical, consider the following passage. John 10:34-38

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

OR, since you prefer Young's translation...

34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?
35 if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)
36 of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say -- Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am?
37 if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me;
38 and if I do, even if me ye may not believe, the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me [is] the Father, and I in Him.'

So please explain why God called people Gods? (the Writing is not able to be broken)
Explain why I can say I am my father's son without meaning that I am his only son.
(We do NOT teach that we were Begotten by him after the manner of the flesh, for that is a distinction belonging only to Jesus Christ, Our savior.)
Why do you speak evil concerning me specifically? Of a truth, while I may be mistaken at times, I have never lied here.
Why do you not believe the Works we do that ye may know and believe that in us is the father and the father is in us, for we are following his word to the best of our ability.

You show us such rancor and animosity, behaving in ways that would embarrass me to behave yet setting yourself up as more righteous person because of your studies. I hate to say it, but I cannot escape the comparison to the phrases, for they were proud of their much learning too. Prove me wrong with a humble reply if you can.

P.S. JFTR Saundra Duffy and I are one in Christ and in no other way.

[MHGinTN]

Here's the 'nice Mormonism Apologist' methodology at work. I post to Saundra to prove her assertion, "But thank you for fulfilling prophesy." The usual suspect then takes 'Prove it, Mormon' and adds the previous sentence to it in order to mischaracterize and post the #2 lecture in its post to me. And the deceiver wonders why I don't post to it or ping it!

Do get a good giggle from the 'ye are gods' use ... and remember the context in which that was offered in the Old Testament to describe disobedient, bad folks among the Hebrews.

And this little lie is another 'nice Mormonism Apologist tactic': "MHGinTN you have in many places and at sundry times denied that Mormons are Christians." I have meticulously opposed Mormonism and stated repeatedly that I do not judge whether individuals are Christian or not who are in the Mormonism cult. In fact, I've even written posts where I state that there are absolutely Christians in the cult, but they are Christians not because of Mormonism but in spite of it. Bwahahahaha, what a maroon. If his posts didn't seek to stand up so much deception they would be thoroughly amusing.

[DelphiUser]

Here's the 'nice Mormonism Apologist' methodology at work.

Thank you, for the complement, I won't get used to it.

I post to Saundra to prove her assertion, "But thank you for fulfilling prophesy." The usual suspect then takes 'Prove it, Mormon' and adds the previous sentence to it in order to mischaracterize and post the #2 lecture in its post to me.

1. I post to Saundra to prove her assertion She asserted she believes in Jesus Christ, are you "Proving" that she believes?.
2. The usual suspect Suspected of what, being right? Very well, I admit it.
3. Mischaracterize? In what way have I mischaracterized your position?

And the deceiver wonders why I don't post to it or ping it!

No, I do not wonder, I realize that you are a petty person who's pride has been offended and who is disrespectful of this forum and it's rules. Regardless of how that makes you look.

Do get a good giggle from the 'ye are gods' use ... and remember the context in which that was offered in the Old Testament to describe disobedient, bad folks among the Hebrews.

Really?

I thought it was because he said "I and the Father are one." in verse 30, and they were trying to stone him. See:

30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Or Young's translation:

30 I and the Father are one.'
31 Therefore, again, did the Jews take up stones that they may stone him;
32 Jesus answered them, `Many good works did I shew you from my Father; because of which work of them do ye stone me?'
33 The Jews answered him, saying, `For a good work we do not stone thee, but for evil speaking, and because thou, being a man, dost make thyself God.'
34 Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?
35 if them he did call gods unto whom the word of God came, (and the Writing is not able to be broken,)
36 of him whom the Father did sanctify, and send to the world, do ye say -- Thou speakest evil, because I said, Son of God I am?
37 if I do not the works of my Father, do not believe me;
38 and if I do, even if me ye may not believe, the works believe, that ye may know and may believe that in me [is] the Father, and I in Him.'

I guess, you think that Jesus saying he is the son of God is not why they tried to stone him, and that is not why he pointed out that the scriptures also called others "Gods". Denial truly is more than a river in Egypt.

And this little lie is another 'nice Mormonism Apologist tactic': "MHGinTN you have in many places and at sundry times denied that Mormons are Christians."

By calling us to return to Christianity you have denied that we are Christians, you have in more than one place denied that I am a Christian, and that Saundra Duffy is a Christian. in fact my response was specifically at such a challenge:
In post #644 Saundra Duffy Said:

Jesus Christ is my Savior, too. He died for me and I love Him. There is only one Jesus Christ, our Savior.

But thank you for fulfilling prophesy.

You responded in Post #645 with:

Prove it, Mormon.

That is a specific denial of faith in Jesus Christ, hence this is one place where you are denying a Mormon is Christian, you have also denied me in similar fashion, hence "Mormons" plural. I did not say All Mormons, I did not say every Mormon, just "Mormons" Thus, as usual, I am correct, and you are proven to be mistaken.

I have meticulously opposed Mormonism and stated repeatedly that I do not judge whether individuals are Christian or not who are in the Mormonism cult.

Ya just did.

In fact, I've even written posts where I state that there are absolutely Christians in the cult, but they are Christians not because of Mormonism but in spite of it.

See, here ya go again, you just can't help yourself, I know.

Bwahahahaha, what a maroon.

Well, I have at times made mistakes, and I admit that I have deficiencies in my knowledge, but I figure posting to people, and encouraging them to pray is a good thing, if I am foolish, it is the foolishness of God.
1 Cor. 1: 18-27

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 Cor. 2: 14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor. 3: 19

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

MHG, I seem to remember that you are a paid minister of some kind, are you not? If so, I am content to be called foolish by one touting his years of learning in religion, and who works in the field for payment of and in this world.

If his posts didn't seek to stand up so much deception they would be thoroughly amusing.

Ah, but yours never fail to amuse.

MHG, have a really great day, and I hope the spirit touches you and teaches you humility in your dealings with your fellow man. I also hope you will pray and restart your reading of the Book of Mormon, for it has much it can and will teach you if you will just let the spirit into your life.

Sincerely, DU.

[MHGinTN]

"No touching! Stop your touching there."

[MHGinTN]

Disclaimer: I am not now nor have I ever been a paid minister or received money for the Bible Study classes I've taught.

[Elsie]

You have no right to judge another's Christianity there is only one Judge in Israel who will judge that, and you are not him.

 

And just what gives YOU the right to judge whether I can judge or not?

 

 

 

I always find it interesting that those who do not want their practices and policies examined tend to trot out those few verses; hoping to stifle any more questions.

 

Sorry folks, but there is MORE to be said in the matter of 'judging'.

 

---

Luke 7:43
   Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."   "You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13
 12.  What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
 13.  God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

 

1 Corinthians 6:2-5
 2.  Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
 3.  Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
 4.  Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!
 5.  I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?

[Elsie]

Hey!

Me neither!

(You can really GET money for that??)

[DelphiUser]

"No touching! Stop your touching there."

LOL!

(psst! You posted to me, oops!)

[DelphiUser]

I said: You have no right to judge another's Christianity there is only one Judge in Israel who will judge that, and you are not him.

Well, he's not. The judgment here is obviously spiritual.

You Said: And just what gives YOU the right to judge whether I can judge or not?

I just quoted, you have to ask the author what gives him the right, let me know how that works out.

You Said: I always find it interesting that those who do not want their practices and policies examined tend to trot out those few verses; hoping to stifle any more questions.

LOL! I am inviting inquiry and Prayer! I always have been, I am rejecting those would would judge us spiritually or based on hearsay. I have invited all to Put our religion to "The Test" and that's a standing challenge on my web page here, stifle questions, HAH!

You Said: Sorry folks, but there is MORE to be said in the matter of 'judging'.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Luke 7:43

Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled." "You have judged correctly," Jesus said.

This is a judgment of Debt in the "real" world, and the example was one where Jesus Forgave sins

Luke 4:41-48

41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Jesus, who is the one qualified to forgive shows both his knowledge of her sins, and his forgiving nature.

You Said: 1 Corinthians 5:12-13

12. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13. God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Here is the whole chapter, sometimes things get out of context when quoted by themselves?

CORINTHIANS 5:1-13

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Am I to be judged of sins this grievous by you who have never laid eyes on me nor know my faults? Fine, Expel me from your church (LOL).

You Said: 1 Corinthians 6:2-5

2. Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
3. Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
4. Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!
5. I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?

Again, verse one was the "Tone setter for this one...

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Again, your quotation takes the scriptures out of context and makes it say it is OK to judge me, where mine is in context, and says not to judge another spiritually.

I don't know why I bother, you who interpret the scriptures to mean what you want, not what they say will ignore my words and interpret them to say what you want, not what I said.

[DelphiUser]

Going to dinner-—

[Elsie]

Again, your quotation takes the scriptures out of context and makes it say it is OK to judge me, where mine is in context, and says not to judge another spiritually.

 

 

Out of CONTEXT??   IN context??

 

 

Let's look at what started this:

 

DU:  MHGinTN you have in many places and at sundry times denied that Mormons are Christians, there is a scripture that was given specifically for those who would judge others.

Matthew 7:1-5

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

 

I fail to find ANY mention of 'spirituality' in these verses you snipped out.

 

"with what measure ye mete" covers ALL bases and it shows that OTHERS will judge YOU in the same way you've judged them.

[Elsie]

Here is the whole chapter, sometimes things get out of context when quoted by themselves?

CORINTHIANS 5:1-13

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Am I to be judged of sins this grievous by you who have never laid eyes on me nor know my faults? Fine, Expel me from your church (LOL).

 

 

 

 

This is what we've done; but you don't laugh, but complain.

 

We consider YOUR jesus and YOUR god to be IDOLS; not the Jesus and GOD that we find in the Scriptures.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: Am I to be judged of sins this grievous by you who have never laid eyes on me nor know my faults? Fine, Expel me from your church (LOL).

You Said: This is what we've done; but you don't laugh, but complain.

We consider YOUR Jesus and YOUR god to be IDOLS; not the Jesus and GOD that we find in the Scriptures.

I see the problem, somebody here does not know the difference between a "Religion" and a "Church".

Elsie, you see, you simply do not have the power to declare that I am not a Christian for it is a religion, not a Church. Lets look at the two nouns "Religion"

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

With the Noun "Church"

a building for public Christian worship.

See a difference? In both I just took the #1 definition for the noun I was looking at, in both cases their are alternate meanings, but the first one is the most common usage and you have to look at Context to move to alternate meanings. You may kick me out of your building, but you cannot say I am not Christian. To say that I am not Christian is A) something you cannot know, for I am the only mortal who truly knows if I believe or not, and B) not your place, Jesus will decide who is his, and you are not him.

You see Elsie, Words mean things, and when you say I am not Christian, you are saying you know what I believe. When I say I am a Christian, and you say I am not you confuse people, and are insinuating that I am a liar, it's not good for either of us. Feel free to kick me out of your "Church", but Jesus and I will decide if I am a Christian or not, capisce?

Some other words you might want to know the meanings of:

• Religion
• Church
• Faith
• Christian
• Orthodox
• Schism

You see to any non Christian, you and I look Identical in our beliefs, just as Moslems (in all their denominations) are Moslems to us and Buddhists (in all their denominations) look the same to most Christians. We look the same to them because we are of the Same Faith (we believe in Jesus Christ) even if we disagree on the specifics about him, we both believe in a person named Jesus Christ, who was Born of Mary, in Bethlehem, we both believe he is the Jesus the Bible's new testament speaks of, to them we are the same religion, Christian. There is a Schism (or doctrinal difference) between our two Churches, yours being considered Orthodox, my religion being considered Unorthodox, another way to put that is the people who believe your way, outnumber the people who believe my way, for Being orthodox, merely means you are part of the majority who are in consensus about something.

I have never said Mormons were Orthodox Christians, but we are Christian, and it is not your place, right, or even logical for you to try to say otherwise.

Mormons get upset when our Christian brethren don't even understand the words they are using to differentiate themselves from us because they make us both look bad by being publicly ignorant about english, and their history and their religion. I find most Orthodox Christians have never read the Bible that they tell me I don't believe in. Most Orthodox Christians don't know when the Nicene Creed was assumed by the Catholic church. Most Orthodox Christians don't know their history, their doctrine, or their creeds These So called followers of Christ don't read the scriptures and don't pray to him expecting answers, then they come on forums like this one and tell me I am not a Christian, when in fact, I am.

I revel in concepts, thoughts and facts, I enjoy them, I ran into this one, and I have kept it in my conscious mind for a long time. All Christians should have things like this that they think about constantly, here it is:

If I were on trial for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict me?

Elsie, I hope and pray that both of us would be convicted Christians.

I also ran into a quote in the last emperor:

Emperor: are words important?
English Teacher: Yes words are important.
Emperor: Why are words important?
English Teacher: A gentleman always means what he says and you can't mean what you say, if you can't say what you mean.

In this modern society of ours, liberals have discouraged excellence, they have dumbed down the language and diluted the meanings of words, if people cannot communicate their thoughts they will stop having them. The destruction of the english language begins by teaching people that actually knowing the proper meaning of a word is unimportant. Religion is one of the best hopes for this country's reform so I see ignorance in religion, particularly among Christians as an effort by Comunism (which I believe to be of the Devil) to weaken us and have us argue when we should be supporting each other.

I will say it again, If you don't like what I believe and teach, kick me out of your church, no problem, call me unorthodox, again, no problem, Tell me I am not a Christian, now you are not telling the truth, problem.

I hope this cleared up a long running misunderstanding, and I hope this motivates all who profess to believe in Jesus to learn more about their faith, and it's tenets, history and vocabulary.

[Elsie]

Tell me I am not a Christian, now you are not telling the truth, problem.

I don't feel any problem with telling you that the Jesus your organizations members worship is not the same Jesus the mass of Christianity worship.