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Mormon ousted as an apostate
East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

Posted on 09/24/2007 8:16:13 AM PDT by colorcountry

click here to read article


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Oh say, what is truth? tis the fairest gem.....

....And you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

1 posted on 09/24/2007 8:16:15 AM PDT by colorcountry
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To: colorcountry

Can have people intimately familiar with the Mormonism heresies telling others the truth now can they! We’ve seen here at FR how the dissembling and deceit runs deep within Mormonism. It will be too easy for the dnc goons to destroy Romney over Mormonism, so the Pubbies cannot afford to nominate that man.


2 posted on 09/24/2007 8:35:37 AM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support. Defend life support for others in the womb.)
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To: MHGinTN

Public shunning (although it is denied) is an effective tool in controlling the behavior of others.

Hard to believe in this day and age of information that is readily available.


3 posted on 09/24/2007 8:39:11 AM PDT by colorcountry (If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you get nonsense! ~ J. Vernon McGee)
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To: colorcountry
Hirschi said he has never been in a meeting in his own 20 years as a Mormon where a public announcement about an excommunication has been made. He said he had only heard of one being made in a neighboring stake . . .

Lamborn must have known something. 'Nuff said.

4 posted on 09/24/2007 8:40:21 AM PDT by ex-Texan (Matthew 7: 1 - 6)
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To: colorcountry

He mentioned the embarrassment that his wife will endure.

I feel for her.

This is not going to be easy on him, his family and friends.


5 posted on 09/24/2007 8:41:00 AM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife
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To: colorcountry

” “Well, I had no knowledge of multiple wives, so I did some research, including using the church’s own genealogical Web site, familysearch.org,” Lamborn said.

He found the information concurred with the book. “Nonmembers seemed to know more about the personal life of Joseph Smith than me,” he said.”

I think I’ll read “Under the Banner of Heaven” again. Great read, and it’s been a while.


6 posted on 09/24/2007 8:49:05 AM PDT by rightazrain ("Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. " -- Ernest Hemingway)
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To: MHGinTN
Horsefeathers! Any group is going to have their dissidents and their ways of dealing with them. It isn't like he has a fatwa against him.

I suspect from what little information is given in the article, the problem is that he wanted to represent himself as a church member when he ceased to subscribe to church membership.

Many years ago, there was a tempest in a teapot in my hometown when the local Mormon congregation excommunicated one of their elders who was advertising that he was performing gay marriages. The local reporter did a much better job than this one . . . or at least the local Mormon spokesman did a better job of explaining because the excommunicated guy generated exactly zero public sympathy in a town which was mainly Lutheran and Catholic.

This story has exactly zero relevance to how Mitt Romney or any other Mormon would govern. His father did a fairly decent job of running Michigan's government for over a decade. OTOH, Harry Reid has done an awful job of running the U.S. Senate for the last nine months.

7 posted on 09/24/2007 8:57:18 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Are there any men left in Washington? Or are there only cowards? Ahmad Shah Massoud)
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To: Vigilanteman
If Romney gets the nomination he will never get the chance to govern as pres ... the heresies and embarrassing truths about Mormonism will destroy his chances by suppressing just enough Christian conservatives votes. To ignore this as a real possibility is to walk into a spinning propeller just to maintain solidarity with Mormonism at any cost.
8 posted on 09/24/2007 9:05:43 AM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support. Defend life support for others in the womb.)
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To: colorcountry

“He said he intends to continue to accompany his wife, Nancy, to ward services.
“It is tough to go, tough to attend, but I enjoy the fellowship,” he said.
He said he has no desire to join another church, adding that the Mormon faith has many merits”

How can you continue to go to a church you no longer believe in? Since everyone knows you’re now a non-believer - where’s the fellowship in that?


9 posted on 09/24/2007 9:20:14 AM PDT by MudPuppy (St Michael Protect Us!)
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To: MHGinTN

“.. the heresies and embarrassing truths about Mormonism will destroy his chances”.

I agree with you. One of the things that amazed me about this article is that I didn’t know that Mormons were in denial about Joseph Smith having multiple wives. It’s a fact their own historical records support, as this gentleman said.

Apparently, it’s not something they acknowledge openly, however.


10 posted on 09/24/2007 9:21:43 AM PDT by rightazrain ("Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. " -- Ernest Hemingway)
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To: MudPuppy

There is a social context to Mormonism. Some will even call themselves cultural Mormons. Note the keyword in cultural.


11 posted on 09/24/2007 9:25:56 AM PDT by colorcountry (If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest you get nonsense! ~ J. Vernon McGee)
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To: rightazrain

“I think I’ll read “Under the Banner of Heaven” again. Great read,
and it’s been a while.”

Other than hearing a books-on-tape about “the Mormon Murders”
(the antiquities scandal that got deadly), I’ve only read the book
below on the history of Mormonism.

It’s extensively footnoted and I suspect a fair review of the movement.

And no, I ain’t bashing our FR Mormons. I’m open to voting for Mitt
on the Nov. 2008 ballot as he sure beats anything the Dems will have
on their ticket!

One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church
by Richard Abanes

http://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-Gods-History/dp/1568582838/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-0608994-6266314?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190651198&sr=1-1


12 posted on 09/24/2007 9:32:16 AM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA

Thanks, it looks good.

I read several books a long way back. I’ve also read, “No Man Knows My History,” by Fawn Brodie, and “Mama, Mormonism, and Me.” Can’t think of the author — I read the book, then loaned it out. You know how that goes ;)


13 posted on 09/24/2007 9:46:52 AM PDT by rightazrain ("Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. " -- Ernest Hemingway)
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To: colorcountry

” was informed he was no longer a church member, could not “enjoy any membership privileges, including the wearing of temple garments and the payment of tithes and offerings.”

Dang, thats some punishement. ROTFL!


14 posted on 09/24/2007 9:51:01 AM PDT by JRochelle ( Winkle Paw is a Hillary donor.)
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To: JRochelle

Note to self. USE SPELLCHCK.


15 posted on 09/24/2007 9:55:29 AM PDT by JRochelle ( Winkle Paw is a Hillary donor.)
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Lamborn, a member of the Thunder Mountain Ward, said his Mormon roots go back generations, with a great-grandfather in the famed Mormon Battalion that trekked from Iowa to San Diego in 1846 and 1847.

Lamborn served a two-year Mormon mission in 1977-79 in Belgium, was elders quorum president four times and led a Mormon Boy Scout troop. Most recently, he said he was assigned to teach older men in his ward and held other roles.

....

"Well, I had no knowledge of multiple wives, so I did some research, including using the church's own genealogical Web site, familysearch.org," Lamborn said.

A remarkable uninquistive fellow! Actually, the last statement doesn't pass the smell test at all. If there is one thing anyone knows about the Mormons, it's that they practiced polygamy at one time. Whatever his reason for being excommunicated, it is apparent from his statements that he is no longer a believer.

16 posted on 09/24/2007 11:22:48 AM PDT by TheDon (The DemocRAT party is the party of TREASON! Overthrow the terrorist's congress!)
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To: colorcountry
Kill the Messenger!!

If you get kicked out of the LDS organization, then you automatically become an ANTI; thereby insuring that ANY thing you say negative about the Organization can then be dismissed by the Truly Faithful - Viola! - damage control is in place and functioning.

17 posted on 09/24/2007 12:54:17 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Vigilanteman
Any group is going to have their dissidents and their ways of dealing with them.

Yup...

...I rest my case.

18 posted on 09/24/2007 12:55:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TheDon
 If there is one thing anyone knows about the Mormons, it's that they practiced polygamy at one time.
 
And then they wimped out against the All Powerful US Government.
 
 
 

   <--- THIS is how the "Everlasting Ordinance" came into being...
 
 

THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS

SECTION 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501—507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

 1—6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7—14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15—20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21—25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26—27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28—39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40—47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48—50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51—57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58—66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 

   

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines —

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fullness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fullness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

9 Will I accept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall come unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.

13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent.  I am he.  Receive ye, therefore,  my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.

36 Abraham was commanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not kill . Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness .

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.

    



 
And THIS is how Everlasting (ahem) was ended....
 
 
 
OFFICIAL DECLARATION—1

To Whom It May Concern:

Press dispatches having been sent for political purposes, from Salt Lake City, which have been widely published, to the effect that the Utah Commission, in their recent report to the Secretary of the Interior, allege that plural marriages are still being solemnized and that forty or more such marriages have been contracted in Utah since last June or during the past year, also that in public discourses the leaders of the Church have taught, encouraged and urged the continuance of the practice of polygamy

I, therefore, as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do hereby, in the most solemn manner, declare that these charges are false. We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory.

One case has been reported, in which the parties allege that the marriage was performed in the Endowment House, in Salt Lake City, in the Spring of 1889, but I have not been able to learn who performed the ceremony; whatever was done in this matter was without my knowledge. In consequence of this alleged occurrence the Endowment House was, by my instructions, taken down without delay.

Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriages, which laws have been pronounced constitutional by the court of last resort, I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws, and to use my influence with the members of the Church over which I preside to have them do likewise.

There is nothing in my teachings to the Church or in those of my associates, during the time specified, which can be reasonably construed to inculcate or encourage polygamy; and when any Elder of the Church has used language which appeared to convey any such teaching, he has been promptly reproved. And I now publicly declare that my advice to the Latter-day Saints is to refrain from contracting any marriage forbidden by the law of the land.

WILFORD WOODRUFF
President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

President Lorenzo Snow offered the following:

“I move that, recognizing Wilford Woodruff as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the only man on the earth at the present time who holds the keys of the sealing ordinances, we consider him fully authorized by virtue of his position to issue the Manifesto which has been read in our hearing, and which is dated September 24th, 1890, and that as a Church in General Conference assembled, we accept his declaration concerning plural marriages as authoritative and binding.”

The vote to sustain the foregoing motion was unanimous.

Salt Lake City, Utah, October 6, 1890.


EXCERPTS FROM THREE ADDRESSES BY
PRESIDENT WILFORD WOODRUFF
REGARDING THE MANIFESTO

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all. . . .

I have had some revelations of late, and very important ones to me, and I will tell you what the Lord has said to me. Let me bring your minds to what is termed the manifesto. . . .

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

The Lord showed me by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for . . . any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our Prophets and Apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed. A large number has already been delivered from the prison house in the spirit world by this people, and shall the work go on or stop? This is the question I lay before the Latter-day Saints. You have to judge for yourselves. I want you to answer it for yourselves. I shall not answer it; but I say to you that that is exactly the condition we as a people would have been in had we not taken the course we have.

. . . I saw exactly what would come to pass if there was not something done. I have had this spirit upon me for a long time. But I want to say this: I should have let all the temples go out of our hands; I should have gone to prison myself, and let every other man go there, had not the God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write. . . .

I leave this with you, for you to contemplate and consider. The Lord is at work with us. (Cache Stake Conference, Logan, Utah, Sunday, November 1, 1891. Reported in Deseret Weekly, November 14, 1891.)

Now I will tell you what was manifested to me and what the Son of God performed in this thing. . . . All these things would have come to pass, as God Almighty lives, had not that Manifesto been given. Therefore, the Son of God felt disposed to have that thing presented to the Church and to the world for purposes in his own mind. The Lord had decreed the establishment of Zion. He had decreed the finishing of this temple. He had decreed that the salvation of the living and the dead should be given in these valleys of the mountains. And Almighty God decreed that the Devil should not thwart it. If you can understand that, that is a key to it. (From a discourse at the sixth session of the dedication of the Salt Lake Temple, April 1893. Typescript of Dedicatory Services, Archives, Church Historical Department, Salt Lake City, Utah.)
 


So much for an 'Everlasting Covenant' that thundered out of Heaven!!!
 
Well; it DID last about 47 years!

19 posted on 09/24/2007 12:58:11 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

“If you get kicked out of the LDS organization, then you automatically become an ANTI; thereby insuring that ANY thing you say negative about the Organization can then be dismissed by the Truly Faithful - Viola! - damage control is in place and functioning.”

______________________

Keep in mind that in this case, as in the case of any excommunication from the LDS Church, the only side you will hear is that of the excommunicated person. The LDS Church regards excommunication proceedings as confidential and never makes public their side of the issue. That leaves the excommunicant free to say whatever he or she desires, and no response from the Church will ever be forthcoming.

Every issue has two sides, and in this case you will only hear one.


20 posted on 09/24/2007 1:03:24 PM PDT by 2pugs4me (The truth will indeed make you free -- just make sure you know what it really is.)
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