Posted on 09/12/2007 1:56:57 PM PDT by NYer
From CWNews:
The Lutheran bishop of Greenland has criticized a Vatican statement on the role of the Catholic Church.
Speaking at an ecumenical leaders' convention on the environment, hosted by the Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople, Lutheran Bishop Sofie Peterson took aim at a document released in July by the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on the unique role of the Catholic Church in the economy of salvation.
In that document, the Vatican had said that Protestant communities, because they have not preserved the Eucharist or the apostolic succession, "cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called 'churches' in the proper sense." Bishop Peterson objected to that statement of doctrine.
"I do not understand, I truly do not understand why the Vatican has done this," said the Lutheran leader, the divorced mother of a teenage daughter. "We have a church, we have a church and the Vatican must respect us. It was sad to read this document, I was profoundly hurt.”
Hmmm..."the Vatican must respect us"? Something tells me this isn't exactly something Martin Luther would be proud of. And, frankly, I would respect his direct and sometimes harsh approach far more than this sort of theologically-clueless "I deserve respect!" whining. With all due respect, grow up and be a, um, uh, Lutheran?
I would also add that people who buy into the sad and un- Christian "doctrine of total depravity" might have a tendency to not take care of themselves.
I have to wonder if this was news to this woman. The Vatican sees itself as the one church, with the Orthodox churches simply a bit wayward, but still under its umbrella, more or less. It is as though this Lutheran Bishop was an Ohio State fan, and was shocked to hear that Michigan thinks of itself as the preeminent football program in the Big Ten. Shocking!!! Please forgive the football metaphor. ‘Tis the season.
But if you're in a position of authority, you are representing the Church and have an additional obligation to care for your appearance (always in a modest way of course).
And being Inuit is no excuse. There are plenty of well groomed and handsome Inuit ladies out there.
You certainly have my sympathy and, I suspect, that of all the other posters. Though they may seem antagonistic, what one perceives as Lutheran bashing is actually great sympathy, generated by extreme frustration. Allow me to translate: 'How could the Lutheran Church have dropped this low in its selection of a bishop'. My guess is that those who elected her did so out of political correctness, just like the ECUSA members who elected Katharine Schori as their Presiding Bishop.
If anything, we Catholics sympathize with the Lutherans, Episcopalanians, Anglicans, etc. in the forum and wish we could do something positive to assist you in turning your churches around. Alas, what we do witness simply affirms the fact that Christ instituted only one Church against which the gates of hell would not prevail. In its 2000 year history, despite good and bad popes, not one has ever erred in doctrine. Sure, we have our assemblage of kooks - women who ordain themselves priests - but the Catholic Church cannot recognize them and never will. All we can do is pray for our fellow christians that they will find peace in their own churches.
God's blessings be on you, dear friend!
“The Vatican sees itself as the one church, with the Orthodox churches simply a bit wayward, but still under its umbrella, more or less.”
I’m sorry, what? The Orthodox haven’t changed anything in doctrine like the Catholics have. She is NOT under its umbrella as you put it nor is she wayward. Please read your church history.
The meaning of church for Protestants is perhaps best defined by the words of Jesus in Matthew 18:20. “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” New King James Version (NKJV). That’s obviously not good enough for the Pope but it’s good enough for me.
I’ll read my church history, if you will take a couple of deep breaths, calm your EMOTIONS, and engage in some reading comprehension. I was attempting to briefly state the Vatican’s position, not that of the Orthodox, nor my own, nor did I make ANY comment on how much doctrine either of them have changed. Is it unfair to say that the Vatican sees the Orthodox as somewhat wayward brothers? Is that really so out of line? Please, tell me your impression as to how the Roman Catholic Church views the Orthodox.
Yes, “wayward” is exactly what the Church thinks of the Orthodox. They have broken communion with Peter and withdrawn into a cave of history. Yes, the Church of Peter has remained engaged in the ongoing theological project of Christianity. But only the Church of Peter is competent to do so. Only the Church of Peter can hold ecumenical councils etc.
So, yeah. You were dead on.
I didn’t think I was too far off. I didn’t exactly say all that, but the Vatican’s position on the Orthodox isn’t easily put into a pithy comment. We all tend to get a little too emotional in these discussions. The divisions get weird. I probably have more in common with NY’er, theologically speaking, than with the Lutheran Bishop from Greenland, though she and I are both “protestants.”
“Of course it’s perfectly fine for Protestants to call the Catholic Church the “Whore of Babylon,” to claim that Catholics are not “Christians”, and to brag about all the “recovering Catholics” in their congregations, but for the Catholic Church, with her own understanding of ecclesiology, to claim as she has always done that the Catholic Church is the true visible Church established by Christ and to claim that Protestant bodies are not true “churches” in the sense that the Catholic Church understands the term, why, that’s just outrageous!”
You’ve got that right!!!
“They have broken communion with Peter and withdrawn into a cave of history.”
Peter was first Bishop of Antioch, long before he when to Rome. So therefore Antioch would be the See of Peter and all of Orthodoxy is part of it.
Probably he will say a prayer for her instead.
First I want to say how proud Jesus is of all of you for not showing any love for anyone who doesn’t walk lock step with your perception of who is and isn’t a Christian. You have based these beliefs from institutions that Satan has had 2000 years in which to distort God’s Word.
In the last few posts we have RC and Orthodox arguing among themselves as to when fallible men determined doctrine and how those decisions pertained to them. I feel better using scripture.
I have only been reading the religion forum for a couple of months. I was a RC many years ago. Was married in the Church because my ex-wife was Catholic from birth. She attended Catholic schools thru HS. We went to Church weekly until we split. That was 40 years ago. Married my current wife 5 years later and have been a Bible believing Protestant since along with her.
I have known a few people who would call the Church the “Whore of Babylon.” I am not of that belief.
I either didn’t know or I don’t remember the amount of devotion to Mary that RC’s have until I started reading these threads. I had also forgotten or had not heard of apostolic succession. Remember, that 40 years ago.
I’ll admit that I have read posts from a few Protestants I wish I had not, I think that there has been more vitriol coming from the RC and Orthodox by far. One only has to look at the uncalled for personal attacks in posts on this thread. Most of the Protestant post ask for scripture and things go down hill from there. Remember, it is not what we put into our mouths that kill us but what comes out.
I know the scripture you use to say that Christ made Peter the first Pope. I, like others, have a hard time with that. I believe that the Church is based on the fact the Jesus is the Son of God, The Messiah. I also believe what e.Shubee posted. Hard to beat scripture. I am surprised that no one made a comment.
The meaning of church for Protestants is perhaps best defined by the words of Jesus in Matthew 18:20. “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” New King James Version (NKJV). That’s obviously not good enough for the Pope but it’s good enough for me.
I recently read about the 6 Churches in Asia in Revelation 2 & 3. For those familiar with those scriptures, Christ is talking to 6 of His Churches. Non of which is in Rome. He gives each praise and condemnation. I find it odd that He never once mentions Peter, a Pope or Apostolic succession. One would think that if He truly wanted Apostolic procession or a Pope he would have praised the churches that had it and condemned the ones that didn’t. What do you all think?
In the next chapter John is taken to the Throne Room. I have read a lot of threads where you say Mary is with Jesus interceding for us. I read in one of the threads that they thought Mary spent her last days living with or near John. Whether that is right or wrong, I think we all would agree that John knew Mary by sight.
John makes a wonderful picture describing everything he saw. The one thing that is glaringly missing in that picture is Mary. I am not saying that to be mean. I am saying that we all have things wrong. One thing I will say is that no demon has been cast out in the name of Mary. We spend to much time doing things that don’t advance His Church whether it be Catholic or Protestant.
He told us we would do greater things than he did. I haven’t seen anyone since the believers in the early Church told in Acts and the epistles that come close to what the Church is supposed to be. Look how fast the Church grew with persecution and the Apostles walking most places. We have instant communication and we are losing believers daily while Islam is growing. Who’s fault is that?
There are many times I think of this scripture;
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
I have done none of those things, where does that leave me?
BVB
The topic of this thread is a liberal post-Christian Lutheran bishopess. You quote the Bible in an attempt to defend her views. Do you really think that she, or any liberal post-Christian, cares what the Bible says? Of course not, they rewrite the Bible to suit themselves.
You say Catholics aren’t showing her love. I can guarantee you that Catholics, Orthodox, and Bible believing Protestants would all rejoice if any of these liberals would convert to orthodox Christianity.
iowamark, I am sorry that you think I am supporting her views. It may look that way but that was not my intent.
You posted....
You say Catholics aren’t showing her love. I can guarantee you that Catholics, Orthodox, and Bible believing Protestants would all rejoice if any of these liberals would convert to orthodox Christianity.
If that is truly the case, they would be praying for her to see the light instead of ridiculing her. We are the only army that shoots our wounded. BVB
“We have a church, we have a church and the Vatican must respect us.”
MUST? How many divisions does the bishop of Greenland have?
“Speaking at an ecumenical leaders’ convention on the environment, hosted by the Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople,”
Right; Green is the new Red.
>> You can’t make this stuff up - it is impossible to parody the modern Church. <<
Ahem, the modern “ecclesiastical community.”
>> Deriding her physical appearance not a good thing. <<
Sister Wendy (my favorite art appreciation teacher) has the most crooked smile, enormous buck teeth, badly aged face, etc., yet there is something beautiful about her. Bishop Peterson is using her face to protest to the world how “saddened” she is by Benedict’s clarification of our Catholic beliefs. She looks ridiculous because she is a phony, a “useful idiot.” She is a fool, and a damned fool, and there is certainly a part of me which does delight in the justice of a damned fool looking like a damned fool.
NYer, so much better said than my post #39, that it makes you seem like such a much better Christian than I, which is also probably reflective of a deeper truth.
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