First I want to say how proud Jesus is of all of you for not showing any love for anyone who doesn’t walk lock step with your perception of who is and isn’t a Christian. You have based these beliefs from institutions that Satan has had 2000 years in which to distort God’s Word.
In the last few posts we have RC and Orthodox arguing among themselves as to when fallible men determined doctrine and how those decisions pertained to them. I feel better using scripture.
I have only been reading the religion forum for a couple of months. I was a RC many years ago. Was married in the Church because my ex-wife was Catholic from birth. She attended Catholic schools thru HS. We went to Church weekly until we split. That was 40 years ago. Married my current wife 5 years later and have been a Bible believing Protestant since along with her.
I have known a few people who would call the Church the “Whore of Babylon.” I am not of that belief.
I either didn’t know or I don’t remember the amount of devotion to Mary that RC’s have until I started reading these threads. I had also forgotten or had not heard of apostolic succession. Remember, that 40 years ago.
I’ll admit that I have read posts from a few Protestants I wish I had not, I think that there has been more vitriol coming from the RC and Orthodox by far. One only has to look at the uncalled for personal attacks in posts on this thread. Most of the Protestant post ask for scripture and things go down hill from there. Remember, it is not what we put into our mouths that kill us but what comes out.
I know the scripture you use to say that Christ made Peter the first Pope. I, like others, have a hard time with that. I believe that the Church is based on the fact the Jesus is the Son of God, The Messiah. I also believe what e.Shubee posted. Hard to beat scripture. I am surprised that no one made a comment.
The meaning of church for Protestants is perhaps best defined by the words of Jesus in Matthew 18:20. “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” New King James Version (NKJV). That’s obviously not good enough for the Pope but it’s good enough for me.
I recently read about the 6 Churches in Asia in Revelation 2 & 3. For those familiar with those scriptures, Christ is talking to 6 of His Churches. Non of which is in Rome. He gives each praise and condemnation. I find it odd that He never once mentions Peter, a Pope or Apostolic succession. One would think that if He truly wanted Apostolic procession or a Pope he would have praised the churches that had it and condemned the ones that didn’t. What do you all think?
In the next chapter John is taken to the Throne Room. I have read a lot of threads where you say Mary is with Jesus interceding for us. I read in one of the threads that they thought Mary spent her last days living with or near John. Whether that is right or wrong, I think we all would agree that John knew Mary by sight.
John makes a wonderful picture describing everything he saw. The one thing that is glaringly missing in that picture is Mary. I am not saying that to be mean. I am saying that we all have things wrong. One thing I will say is that no demon has been cast out in the name of Mary. We spend to much time doing things that don’t advance His Church whether it be Catholic or Protestant.
He told us we would do greater things than he did. I haven’t seen anyone since the believers in the early Church told in Acts and the epistles that come close to what the Church is supposed to be. Look how fast the Church grew with persecution and the Apostles walking most places. We have instant communication and we are losing believers daily while Islam is growing. Who’s fault is that?
There are many times I think of this scripture;
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
I have done none of those things, where does that leave me?
BVB
The topic of this thread is a liberal post-Christian Lutheran bishopess. You quote the Bible in an attempt to defend her views. Do you really think that she, or any liberal post-Christian, cares what the Bible says? Of course not, they rewrite the Bible to suit themselves.
You say Catholics aren’t showing her love. I can guarantee you that Catholics, Orthodox, and Bible believing Protestants would all rejoice if any of these liberals would convert to orthodox Christianity.
You make a good point. Language, oftentimes, is the worst form of communication. In our frustration to communicate what we know in our minds and feel in our heart can result in misunderstandings. We should be more christian in our approach towards each other. Thank you for the reminder!
You have based these beliefs from institutions that Satan has had 2000 years in which to distort God’s Word.
Well here I will take issue. Matthew 16:18. If anything, it is the Reformation that has led to the creation of 33,000+ non-Catholic Churches. Scripture reveals that Christ established one Church - not many - and that Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
In the last few posts we have RC and Orthodox arguing among themselves as to when fallible men determined doctrine and how those decisions pertained to them.
Catholics (note that there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church of which the Latin Church is just one) and Orthodox are very close and both trace their roots to the Apostles. There are a few doctrines that separate us and, like 'siblings', we often get into heated discussions here in the forum.
I feel better using scripture.
Because the Old and New Testament Scriptures are the divinely-revealed, written Word of God, Catholics and Orthodox venerate the Scriptures as they venerate the Lord's body. But Catholics and Orthodox do not believe that God has given us His divine Revelation in Christ exclusively through Scripture. Catholics and Orthodox also believe that God's Revelation comes to us through the Apostolic Tradition and teaching authority of the Church.
That Bible you love - it was the Catholic Church that determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century.
I was a RC many years ago. Was married in the Church because my ex-wife was Catholic from birth. She attended Catholic schools thru HS. We went to Church weekly until we split. That was 40 years ago.
At what age did you convert to the Catholic faith?
I know the scripture you use to say that Christ made Peter the first Pope. I, like others, have a hard time with that.
13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16
What is so hard to understand?
I believe that the Church is based on the fact the Jesus is the Son of God, The Messiah.
So do Catholics.
The meaning of church for Protestants is perhaps best defined by the words of Jesus in Matthew 18:20. “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” New King James Version (NKJV). That’s obviously not good enough for the Pope but it’s good enough for me.
By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6). The Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. (cf. Ephesians 3:10).
There are many times I think of this scripture; Matthew 7:21. I have done none of those things, where does that leave me?
Luke
Chapter 18
- 10
- "Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
- 11
- The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity--greedy, dishonest, adulterous--or even like this tax collector.
- 12
- I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.'
- 13
- But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.'
- 14
- I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
>> First I want to say how proud Jesus is of all of you for not showing any love for anyone who doesn’t walk lock step with your perception of who is and isn’t a Christian. <<
I did specifically praise NYer for expressing herself in a manner seemingly much more Christian than my feeble attempt.
>> You have based these beliefs from institutions that Satan has had 2000 years in which to distort God’s Word. <<
Who’s easier to mislead, an entire Tradition, or an individual?
>> In the next chapter John is taken to the Throne Room. I have read a lot of threads where you say Mary is with Jesus interceding for us. I read in one of the threads that they thought Mary spent her last days living with or near John. <<
Doesn’t MENTION Mary? Au contraire, he devotes an entire CHAPTER to Mary. She is not only in the throne room, she is crowned by a crown of twelve stars, the tribes of Israel!
>> We went to Church weekly until we split. That was 40 years ago. <<
That’s very sad that you split after 40 years of marriage.
>> One would think that if He truly wanted Apostolic procession or a Pope he would have praised the churches that had it and condemned the ones that didn’t. What do you all think? <<
Because the ones he mentions all WERE.
Revelation was not written as a denouement to a Bible that did not exist at the time. John sent his letter from exile on Patmos, and much of the imagery and symbology is not only prophetic, but coded testament of Nero's horrific persecution of Christians in Rome. The Asian Churches he addressed - if you refer to a map - are all on a very small geographical stretch in Asia Minor. These letters were addressed to these particular Churches because John, previous to his exile, lived among them - he knew their Bishops, and their respective foibles or merits. He was, in effect, correcting their misbehavior and praising their merits, because he knew these Churches intimately. This is why there is no address to Rome - or Corinth - or Alexandria - or anywhere else.
Additionally, because of the fierce persecution in Rome, John would have taken care not to "out" Peter as head of the Church at Rome. That's common sense. Nero was turning Christians into human torches to light the roadways. He wrote of the persecution in code because there was great danger of his letter being intercepted and further action taken by the Empire against the threat of "Chrestus". In battle, soldiers take care not to salute the commanding officer, for obvious reasons. John does the same.
The validitiy of apostolic succession is evidenced by the election of Matthias to take the "office" of Judas. If that's not proof of apostolic succession, what is? Additionally, all of these unified, catholic Churches had apostolic succession to begin with, so there were none to condemn for not having it.
This thread is actually fairly tame.
One can have intelligent discussion with AnAmericanMother and NYer. They are not part of the problem.
There are only a half dozen or so rabid Catholics who can be counted on to engage in name calling on a regular basis and who are incapable of engaging in rational theological debate, and one or two Orthodox. But I have also seen a few fiery Mormon and Church of Christ threads.
The religion mod, when he is around, does a good job of keeping things under control - the religion board used to be much worse.