Posted on 09/08/2007 10:18:04 AM PDT by SmithL
Vicki Curtis has been a member of St. Benjamin's Evangelical Lutheran Church in Westminster since 1981, but when her denomination appeared to be softening its stance on homosexuality, she didn't hesitate to act.
She left her church.
Now she's doing what she calls "search the church Sundays" by visiting congregations with convictions closer to her own."The Bible says in Leviticus 18:22 that homosexuality is a sin and its penalty is death. My faith is built on what the Bible teaches, and I will not go where it isn't being followed," she wrote in an e-mail.
She was responding to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's adoption of a resolution at its 10th Biennial Churchwide Assembly in Chicago on Aug. 11 recommending that bishops and synods not discipline clergy or lay professionals in committed same-sex relationships.
This decision left the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, a conservative Lutheran denomination of 2.6 million members, equally perplexed about the actions of its larger relative, according to its president, Gerald Kieschnick.
"News of this action troubles me greatly," he wrote in a statement last month. "We are deeply disappointed that the ELCA, by its decision, has failed to act in keeping with the historic and universal understanding of the Christian church regarding what the Holy Scripture teaches about homosexual behavior as contrary to God's will and about the biblical qualifications for holding the pastoral office."
In passing this resolution, ELCA seems to be following a path already forged by The Episcopal Church and the United Church of Christ, both of which affirm openly homosexual clergy.
But people are overreacting, said ELCA spokesman John Brooks.
"We haven't changed any policy," he said.
Brooks stressed that the resolution only recommended leniency and that bishops who felt moved to do so are not prohibited from disciplining gay clergy.
Brooks characterized the resolution as a cease-fire, a way of maintaining peace between factions who either support full acceptance of gay clergy now and those who oppose acceptance.
The denomination will further consider the subject in 2009.
At that time, a task force working on a social statement on human sexuality will present what it has prepared at the next church-wide assembly in Minneapolis.
The task force has been specifically charged with addressing current denomination policy that precludes lesbians or gays from working in clerical or professional lay positions in the church.
The recommendation is a way to keep people in same-sex relationships in the church, Brooks said.
He said the denomination is trying hard to stay together despite differences.
"Every 20 minutes during the discussion, all the voting members stopped, held hands and prayed together," he said.
The assembly passed the resolution by a vote of 538-431.
As for people like Curtis who are leaving the church, Brooks said he is not surprised but he also noted that most people thus far are staying with the denomination. Curtis, however, questioned how a few hundred people could make such a decision for a church with 4.8 million members.
"Nobody sent me a ballot and said, 'What do you think?'" she said. "I don't need a sexuality statement. I read the Bible."
I hope you're still reading this thread. I'd be very interested in why you think this is so.
When I first started here on FR, I had never talked with any EO person about their views. In how we think about things like morality, Christology, and even (to a point) justification/sanctification I have seen that I am much closer to the Eastern Orthodox view than the Western Roman Catholic one.
I pinged Kolo, because he was one of those who I discussed things with alot.
What sort of congregational leader are you? Are you Serbian Orthodox or Lutheran? I can tell you this, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, other conservative Lutheran bodies, and the Serbian Orthodox Church would NOT look favorably upon your dual church membership.
I'm wondering what you think of the "somewhere between" LCMS and ELCA for the "new denomination?" You do know that this means women will be ordained -- something totally against the teachings of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Aberaussie, this man thinks I am not in the trenches everyday lol!!!
You're right. And you'll find Him really present in the Eucharist, at any Catholic (or Orthodox) Church. You won't find Him present in that manner at other religious communities.
I kind of agree, but the Lutheran Church kept some of Rome's post-Schism innovations, so I'd say it's more like a hybrid that falls somewhere between them.
I'd be very interested in why you think this is so.
Since Luther had been in the Augustinian order, theology of Lutherans still connected to Luther are connected to a lot of Church theology that predates the Schism.
That's interesting. I asked because I recently moved and I'm thinking about attending a Lutheran church (Missouri Synod) for the first time. I've also been attracted to Orthodox churches, so I was wondering what similarities you saw. How are the Lutheran church and EO churches alike regarding justification/sanctification?
Can you give me an example? And would Lutherans still connected to Luther include Missouri Synod churches? (Excuse my ignorance on this, but I'm a dyed-in-the-wool evangelical only just learning about the Lutheran church and the Orthodox church.)
The Lutheran Church maintained the Three Ecumenical or Universal Creeds; Apostles, Nicene (They stayed "Western" in the Filioque controversy) & Athanasian. They're also "Western" in using unleavened bread for the Eucharist. The Lutheran Church has historically taught that the body & blood of Christ are present in the Eucharist (I think ELCA teaches that he's only there in spirit), but it is different than the RCC on transubstantiation (body & blood alone), the Orthodox Church (Mystery), as it teaches four elements (body, blood, bread & wine).
And would Lutherans still connected to Luther include Missouri Synod churches?
Yes. The LCSM is still bound to the Book of COncord. The ELCA teaches the Lutheran Confessions to be *historical* articles of the faith.
The early Christian fathers report that the Apostle John, late in his life, visited a Roman bath in the city of Ephesus to take a hot bath for his achey bones. When someone told him the apostate leader Cherinthius (sp?) had entered the same bath house John rushed out without even stopping to get dressed, yelling for his followers to leave before the roof caved in. I would expect anyone who finds themselves in one of these apostate churches to do the same.
In some ways miles apart, in some ways kind of close. In the Orthodox Churches, the whole concept of justification/sanctification never really became a point of contention like it did in the West. Primarily because St. Augustine did not have that much influence in the East.
But in talking with many Orthodox, they focus more on the Love of God (which is more Lutheran) than the legal contractrial requirements of salvation (which is more of a Catholic/Western view). For instance, a conservative Roman Catholic will talk of their "Weekly obligation of going to Mass" in terms of a legal requirement. An Orthodox person will typically talk of going to church as a type of love offering (I might not have phrased that right).
Now, both are going to church because of their love of God, but in the Roman Catholic view, it is viewed more as a contratial obligation (you must do X) than as a result of our love for God. Lutherans and Orthodox take more the view that it is a result of our love for God, because you can not "force" that love.
Indeed. But what shocked me (and in some ways still does!) is that we Lutherans tend toward the Eastern Orthodox at all! I had no contact with any Orthodox (there aren't that many in rural Nebraska) growing up, and had very little idea of who they were or what their beliefs are. It has been a very fascinating discovery for me to study Eastern Orthodox theology. In part because there is a lot that is like "Lutherans", and because there is so much that is totally unlike anything Western.
“Primarily because St. Augustine did not have that much influence in the East.”
For all intents and purposes, virtually no influence, for which I might add, we are eternally grateful!
“But in talking with many Orthodox, they focus more on the Love of God (which is more Lutheran) than the legal contractrial requirements of salvation (which is more of a Catholic/Western view). For instance, a conservative Roman Catholic will talk of their “Weekly obligation of going to Mass” in terms of a legal requirement. An Orthodox person will typically talk of going to church as a type of love offering (I might not have phrased that right).”
Its really quite simple. Here’s a story to illustrate what I mean. Some years ago my wife and I were visiting with the nuns at the monastery on the mountain outside our village down in the old country. The abbess, an MD in her former life, asked my wife, as a woman who had grown up a Congregationalist and become Orthodox as a grown woman, what she saw as the difference between the churches in the West and The Church in the East. She replied, “In the West, Mother, the churches say ‘do this or you will go to Hell’. In the East The Church says, ‘Do this and you will become like God’.”
“Brooks stressed that the resolution only recommended leniency and that bishops who felt moved to do so are not prohibited from disciplining gay clergy.”
This fool doesn’t get it. There shouldn’t BE any homosexual clergy.
I hope everyone leaves any church that does stupid things like this.
Now, Kolokotronis, I think this statement is just a little extreme. I often hear Catholics speak of the joy they receive from going to Mass and receiving Our Lord in the Eucharist. They wouldn’t miss even if it wasn’t a requirement. Look how many Catholics go to daily Mass. It is not out of fear of hell but because they want to be with Our Lord and receive Him. Think of the great Catholic Carmelite tradition where the desire and longing is union with God.
The requirement to attend Mass on Sunday is a protection for the soul, to hear the word of God once a week and to worship Him. Otherwise it is so easy to forget and drift away.
My wife was a Congregationalist.
I must say, however, that a very, very long time ago when I was in Catholic elementary school being told how if a child missed Mass on Sunday and got hit by a bus and killed on Monday that child went straight to everlasting hell fires, I think I could have bought into that characterization. By the way, I was also taught that we Orthodox were going to hell too because we would not “subjugate” ourselves to the Pope of Rome. But that was a long time ago, before there were nuns in pantsuits and gay rights and eucharistic ministers and such like.
“In the Orthodox Churches, the whole concept of justification/sanctification never really became a point of contention like it did in the West. Primarily because St. Augustine did not have that much influence in the East.”
It just occurred to me that Kontakion 22 of +Romanos the Melodist (8th century) poetically lays out a part of what you are talking about here. In the West, the Crucifixion is seen as an atonement to God for sin, at least since the 11th century. The influence of Blessed Augustine and his notions of original sin in all of this cannot be overemphasized. At any rate, take a read of this Kontakion and see if what the East believes to have been the purpose of the crucifixion isn’t somewhat different from what you see in the West. By the way, this is a pdf file.
http://www.anastasis.org.uk/ROMK22.pdf
I will print it out and read it tonight.
It's troublesome to me (as a Protestant) to be "bound" by anything but Scripture, so I suppose my next stop will be the Book of Concord. The ELCA is the liberal "wing" of the Lutheran Church, isn't it?
This has been my impression, but I didn't know if that impression was based in reality or I'd just happened to read things and talk to people -- by luck of the draw -- who basically said what you've said here.
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