Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[Kolokotronis]

“And how do you know I am not an Irish/Greek? :>)”

‘Cause I’m one and it takes one to know one! Besides, most people here are far too nice and polite to be even a little bit Greek! :)

That Cain thing apparently comes from an outfit called Shepherd’s Chapel headed up by a fellow named Arnold Murray. Its down South somewhere as I understand it.

[irishtenor]

Well, I don’t mind calling THAT belief stupid.

Actually, I am Irish/French (but I really don’t claim the French part :>)

[kosta50]

“And how do you know I am not an Irish/Greek? :>)”

‘Cause I’m one and it takes one to know one! Besides, most people here are far too nice and polite to be even a little bit Greek! :)

Hey, don't leave us Serbs out of this!

[Kolokotronis]

“(but I really don’t claim the French part :>)”

Smart move...though a beautiful language!

[Titan Magroyne]

Aw c’mon, no rehearsal for this coming weekend?

P.S. Print hardcopies of the above referenced article as required reading before you’ll deign to discuss your FiL’s assertions. ;o)

[Kolokotronis]

"Hey, don't leave us Serbs out of this!"

I am informed, on very good authority (my buddy Bogdan) that long ago the Serbs were a gentle woodland folk of simple beliefs and childlike ways, trustworthy and tractable. Bad people drove them from their ancient homelands to the Balkan mountains where they fell in with the wrong crowd (I bet you can guess with whom). Since then they have spent their time drinking true necatar of the gods, domaca sljiva, practicing the most ancient form of Christianity, fighting Mohammedans and hanging out on mountains with Greeks. The Greeks, recognizing kindred lost souls, gave the Serbs an alphabet into which Greek may be EXACTLY translated. Thus, to this day, Church Slavonic is as precise a Christian theological language as Greek.

[Religion Moderator]

irishtenor and kosta50 are both correct in their understanding of the guidelines.

Open threads are not ecumenical. Posters on open threads should expect their confession to be challenged, ridiculed or whatever. If the poster cannot handle that type of "town square" debate, he should stay with the closed threads (devotionals, caucuses and prayer threads) which are "safe harbor."

I can intercede to keep posters from "making it personal" but there is nothing I can do to keep a poster from "taking it personally."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[D-fendr]

Explain then how God is just in commanding the infanticide of innocent babies.

That's a problem Calvinism has to answer. I think it goes with how God is just in creating innocent babies born reprobate - doomed as well.

[Forest Keeper]

English versions of the Bible are full of errors and therefore Orthodox people, learned or unlearned, cradle or convert know that the only safe way to understand the Bible is to read it in light of what The Church has always taught. If we read the Bible in Greek, we see the religion of The Apostles and The Fathers.

I find it odd that God would set up His word (in the NT) so that it could only properly be understood in a single language. That seems like very poor planning on His part. :) It would appear that God's intention was to only relate to Greek speakers, and the rest of the world would be totally dependent on them to know God. That is a very difficult concept to accept. :)

[Kolokotronis]

“It would appear that God’s intention was to only relate to Greek speakers, and the rest of the world would be totally dependent on them to know God. That is a very difficult concept to accept. :)”

Well, FK, there are a couple of ways to look at that. First is that that is exactly what God intended, or so it seems, given that the NT was written in Greek. The second is close to the first. What God intended was that people who are serious about Christianity would develop a language of theology and perhaps of worship which EXACTLY expressed what the Greek said. I pick #2.

This, of course, is precisly what the Slavs and to some extent Arabs did. The West, for reasons having to do with the Latin Western Empire and the predominence of Frankish thought in the post Empire period, chose otherwise. By the time the Reformers came along, the horse had long since left the barn.

It is interesting that the German Luther developed for his translation of the Bible was a sort of theological language, though not one designed to convey exactly what the Greek original said.

[irishtenor]

All of our pastors need to learn Greek in order to be ordained.

[irishtenor]

***Posters on open threads should expect their confession to be challenged, ridiculed or whatever.***

Consider yourself Whatevered :>)

[irishtenor]

And Hebrew.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for your encouragements!

[D-fendr]

I find it odd that God would set up His word (in the NT) so that it could only properly be understood in a single language

Perhaps He set it up so that it would be understood in a single Church, transmitted in a way transcending language, from Apostle to their successors and their successor..s.

If God were practical and understood how languages work, perhaps would not rely upon words and translations of words and translations of translations of words.

That is a very difficult concept to accept.

Yes, transmitting spiritual knowledge accross the ages sola language would not be very wise. :)

[Forest Keeper]

For all eternity the desire for the sins which were the driving force of the affections of the wicked will still be present with the wicked, however, they will not have the circumstance to fulfill them, not even once, for all eternity. Would that be like being in "fire"? I think so.

That's an interesting idea. I've never thought of that before. I sure don't know exactly what the experience of the reprobate will be in hell, and I'm sure I don't want to know. :) But I think everything you said is perfectly reasonable. It would be kind of like a "torture tease". That would certainly be hell.

[Forest Keeper]

I think where the easterns have difficulty here is the terminology of "place", which means a location in spacial dimensions, whereas they see the separation from God, ...... as one being of a purely spiritual condition, of "darkness" or the absence of Light. But in that construct, it is forgotten that the wicked will be resurrected to a real, physical body, which indeed does require a "place" since that body has spacial dimensions.

That's right. The scriptures are clear on that. To build in allegory without scriptural support for their own position is forced. I am unsure what the Orthodox position is on glorified bodies, and whether they are real (literal) or not. But if they don't believe that Heaven is a place either, then I don't imagine they would believe in glorified bodies.

[D-fendr]

Sin is not ‘fulfilling’. Two old aphorisms come to mind:

“God must have really hated me, He gave me everything I wanted.”

and

“You can never get enough of what you really don’t want.”

[Forest Keeper]

But what is really a nonsense is that every Protestant claims the "indwelling spirit" and believes something completely private and inadvertently different from others! Thus Osteen would surely say that what he teaches about hell is from the Holy Spirit as much as you would disagree with him claiming the same Holy Spirit as the interpreter.

Oh, I think Reformers are a pretty tight bunch. It still sounds like you think it is proper to lump all Protestants together as being under one roof, the way you are. Then you believe it is fair to apply your rules to that group that you made up. It really doesn't work that way.

I'm sure that Osteen would say he is led by the Holy Spirit, the same as I do, and the same as your saying that the Holy Spirit leads the consensus patrum, and other majorities in the cases of doctrines and disciplines. It's the same idea, isn't it, except that for you it's by a vote of a group. Why is it that any one person can be wrong, or incomplete in his understanding, but magically any group must be correct? That doesn't make sense. Proof is in all the heresies, followed by groups, that you have fought against. Plus, Latin groups (or the Pope) disagree with your groups. You believe that God only leads your groups in scriptural interpretation, and we believe that God leads all of His children in scriptural interpretation. Neither argument is inherently superior to the other outside of scripture, and of course we both have our own ideas on THAT. :)

Protestantism is unbiblical private interpretation of the scriptures. The New Testament prohibits it. It is an amateur adventure, FK. It promotes relativism.

Actually, isn't it Orthodoxy that employs a much higher level of mystery in its theology? In addition, Orthodoxy has a much much "looser" view of scriptures, AND it relies on the uninspired words of majority groups of fallible men for ultimate spiritual truth. I'd say it was your side that would be much more susceptible to relativism. :)

[kosta50]

The Greeks, recognizing kindred lost souls, gave the Serbs an alphabet into which Greek may be EXACTLY translated. Thus, to this day, Church Slavonic is as precise a Christian theological language as Greek

And the Church Slavonic language, based on Greek structure and Slavic words...a masterpiece that remains unknown to most to this day.