Replies

I think where the easterns have difficulty here is the terminology of "place", which means a location in spacial dimensions, whereas they see the separation from God, ...... as one being of a purely spiritual condition, of "darkness" or the absence of Light. But in that construct, it is forgotten that the wicked will be resurrected to a real, physical body, which indeed does require a "place" since that body has spacial dimensions.

That's right. The scriptures are clear on that. To build in allegory without scriptural support for their own position is forced. I am unsure what the Orthodox position is on glorified bodies, and whether they are real (literal) or not. But if they don't believe that Heaven is a place either, then I don't imagine they would believe in glorified bodies.

MLG: I think where the easterns have difficulty here is the terminology of "place", which means a location in spacial dimensions, whereas they see the separation from God, ...... as one being of a purely spiritual condition, of "darkness" or the absence of Light. But in that construct, it is forgotten that the wicked will be resurrected to a real, physical body, which indeed does require a "place" since that body has spacial dimensions

FK: That's right. The scriptures are clear on that. To build in allegory without scriptural support for their own position is forced

The only thing the Scriptures is clear on is that the heaven is "up" there and hell is "down" somewhere in earth. Do you believe hell is in earth?

Christ has a Body sitting to the right "side" of the Father Who has NO BODY! Do you have any idea where Christ's body may be located in space?

Obviously, our language and conceptutal capacities are deficient in being able to express or know such mysteries intellectually, just as none of those alive really knows what it means to be dead. Only the dead do. A different dimension. They are profoundly experiential in nature, and as such can only be described allegorically and anecdotally.

Can you describe accurately what love is in real physical terms? Or can you only appeal to experiential and anecdotal tools and know that they all fall short of what you really know?

You cannot speak of the other dimension in terms of this dimension. All we know is that everything that lives dies. What happens behind that door is not within us to know in this dimention (of our existence), or to describe except as allegory. Literalism is a sure way to miss the point.

But you are right: allegories are forced upon us to describe the indescribable.

me: think where the easterns have difficulty here is the terminology of "place", which means a location in spacial dimensions, whereas they see the separation from God, ...... as one being of a purely spiritual condition, of "darkness" or the absence of Light. But in that construct, it is forgotten that the wicked will be resurrected to a real, physical body, which indeed does require a "place" since that body has spacial dimensions.

FK: That's right. The scriptures are clear on that. To build in allegory without scriptural support for their own position is forced. I am unsure what the Orthodox position is on glorified bodies, and whether they are real (literal) or not. But if they don't believe that Heaven is a place either, then I don't imagine they would believe in glorified bodies.

Prior to resurrection, the spirits are not located in spacial dimensions as we know them, so we speak of heaven in terms being in relationship with the Lord. After the resurrection, when our spirits are reunited with real, literal, material bodies prepared for eternity, immortal and in union with God and the saints, then heaven will be not only be relationship but also "place", as the Scriptures say;

Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells---2 Peter 3:13

Therefore, the renewal of creation, which is Redeemed from the curse of sin, is "heaven", as well as having the physical Christ within our midst, our most prized, and worthy Lord for whom we forsake all for, adoring Him to the utmost and desiring Him above all, with whom we will be with for all eternity. So, paradise lost, becomes paradise renewed, except better than what Adam had, for we will have the Living, Physical Christ with us.