Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Well, no! Does this mean that God is like the Blob that sucks us up into some Godly creative energy mass?
“Does this mean that God is like the Blob that sucks us up into some Godly creative energy mass?”
No! :)
Then why is the elder brother of that Synod not a Patriarch of Greece?
Tertullian was a heretic and the Latins, as in other matters, are simply wrong. The quoted position is from the Middle Ages after Rome broke from the other Patriarchates. Rome picked up a lot of odd stuff after the Great Schism. Some of those oddities lead to the Reformation. More later; off to an Armenian dance where I can say all the bad things about Turks I want!
“Then why is the elder brother of that Synod not a Patriarch of Greece?”
Oh, come on Kosta, you know us Greeks. Do you think we’d let one of our own have that sort of title? :)
Off to dance with Armenians and drink to the confusion of the Turks and all Mohammedans!
Darn, and I wasn't invited! :)
The point of Total Depravity is that, until you are born again, until you have been washed with the blood of Jesus, you are totally depraved with no desire for God, no desire to please God, and with no ability to go to God. That is the total depravity of man in his natural state. In other words, there is no Holy good in him UNTIL he is born again.
Now, let’s take your scenario... a child, totally depraved by his parents, completely ignored by them. Now, suddenly, an adoptive parent takes him, cleans him up, loves him like no one ever has, takes care of him and let’s him live with the parent forever. That is the Lord with those he chose. We (and I am including you in this, because I can see in your nature that you love the Lord)having once been lost, wallowing in the mire of sin, have now been washed with the blood of the Lamb, adopted into the family of God, and will live with him, forever.
Tertullian is not a Church Father and more than Martin Luther is.
The mortality of the soul is scriptural: Ezekiel 18:4 "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Those who will remain separated from God for all eternity, due to unrepentant sins, hall be dead. Sin is death.
You must have a definition of "immortality" that is not found in the English dictionary. I won't quote it so as not to raise any straw men. :) In any event, your middle sentence above is internally inconsistent. If you admit that a wicked man "will remain separated from God for all eternity", then you admit that the soul goes on forever and is not annihilated. That is an immortal soul. (And as Harley noted, not eternal, but immortal once created.) You may call this soul "dead to God" if you wish, but that does not affect the fact that such a soul still exists, which is what you deny if you say that the soul is not immortal.
Man's soul was created immortal because it is life which is from God. Had Adam not sinned, he would have never died. Adam's daaged soul is passed on to all of us. God doe snot created damaged souls.
Our source of life is God. Without God we perish. Because we inherit a damaged soul, we are destined to death. God came and made it possible for us to be restored to our original state. In order to do that we must repent of our fallen will, come to Him, and follow His steps.
The unrepentant soul will perish, as Ezekiel states. If the unrepentant departed are to "exist" in a state of complete darkness (separation from Light, which is God), not knowing where they are for all eternity, and you want to call it "life" then, sure, they will be "immortal."
So Irenaesus and Tertullian are heretics for believing in the immortality of all souls??? Tertullian lived from 155-230AD. Irenaesus lived about the same time. And let's not forget the Apostle Creed of the 6th/7th century;
Did it ever occur to you that the eastern church fathers who gave you this material could have been the heretics?
Oh, now we're into quantifying and qualifying who and who is not a church father based upon our own personal preferences??? So, if I understand this correctly, 1) pick and choose which bible verses to believe, 2) pick and choose what theology to believe, 3) pick and choose what church fathers to believe.
No wonder so many are into "free choice".
The mortality of the soul is scriptural: Ezekiel 18:4 "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Of course the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Hell is eternal death.
Mar 9:43 And if your hand offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than to have two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched
Does this mean that in Orthodoxy, the spiritual and the physical are treated the same, or in fact ARE the same? Do you consider a soul in hell to be nonexistent, or do you simply rename it "dead", thus it is mortal? I think that the Latins and the Protestants see the issue of mortality as simply one of existence, not one of destination.
The unrepentant soul will perish, as Ezekiel states. If the unrepentant departed are to "exist" in a state of complete darkness (separation from Light, which is God), not knowing where they are for all eternity, and you want to call it "life" then, sure, they will be "immortal."
On the one hand there is "life" and "death", and on the other hand there is existence. Two separate issues. It just doesn't seem like hell is that big a deal in Orthodoxy.
In addition, what makes you think that the damned will not know where they are? I think it will be clear to them since:
Rom 14:10-11 : 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
After the judgment, how can anyone not know where he winds up?
“”I would suggest as St. Clement of Rome wrote in his First Epistle to the Corinthians that our goal and obligation is for us to humble ourselves before God.””
I agree with you on this.
“The soul is immortal.” etc, etc.
I am happy to see that you people continued with your lives in theological cyberspace whilst I, I was “Dancing with Armenians”! Wonderful evening, wonderful people, wonderful food, wonderful music. We danced to the last dance and even the young Armenians allowed that “Men like Kolokotronis should live to be 1000 years old!” Ha!
Gee, those Armenian girls were pretty and could dance so well for their husbands!
First, Irenaeus did not believe in, or teach the immortality of the soul by nature. The Orthodox teaching on this has never changed.
Second, Tertullian was a heretic because he embraced Montanism which teaches, among other thing, that the prophesies of the Montanists supercede those of the Apostles. I would call that a heresy, big time. You need to get your facts straight, HD.
What Kolokotronis told you is the Orthodox doctrine, always has been and always will be, because even the people you mention as believing in the so-called "immortality" of the soul (by nature) admit that it is not. Even Platonists in the early Church (i.e. Clement of Alexandria) admitted that the soul is not immortal by nature, but by grface.
The immortality of the soul is not its nature (i.e. it is not created immortal) but it is given by God (grace). If God created immortal souls then we would be God. You will just have to do a little more Church Fathers studying before you get the whole picture.
The problem with Tertullian and others on the Latin side (the root of St. Augustine's error, the fillioque error, etc.) is that their misconceptions always started with the poor understanding of Greek, and these, in turn, (mis)led to doctrinal errors.
I am not sure where you get this idea or what you mean by this. God created man as body and soul. This is our "natural" state. Neither the body without the soul, nor the soul without the body is how God created us. We cannot separate the two and have man.
I think that the Latins and the Protestants see the issue of mortality as simply one of existence, not one of destination
The Orthodox deal with "nature" or essence, not with destinations, FK. Is man immortal by nature? If a soul is created immortal, then it is divine by nature. The Church always believed that man is made immortal by grace. Christ tells us "I am Life." We are given life in Christ. It is not a property we have by nature.
In addition, what makes you think that the damned will not know where they are?
What will they "know" separated from God who is everything and all? What will they "see" being separated from Light? What will they "feel" being separated from Love? The entire hope of Christianity rests on the knowledge that those who come to Christ will continue to live, see, feel, love. How will the condemned be any different from a rock? Is the prospect of being separated from everything for all eternity not torture itself?
After the judgment, how can anyone not know where he winds up?
I would worry about that before the Judgment.
I am not sure where you get this idea or what you mean by this.
At physical death, the physical body returns to dust, meaning nothingness. The physical body is mortal. I was asking if you thought that the same thing happens to the condemned soul at physical death (or judgment) because you say it is also mortal.
Is man immortal by nature?
Spiritually, "Yes". Adam had an immortal soul when he was created. The fact that he sinned did not change that.
If a soul is created immortal, then it is divine by nature. The Church always believed that man is made immortal by grace.
Where does that rule come from? If you are made immortal by grace, do you then have the divine nature or essence? Of course not. I don't see the distinction.
We are given life in Christ. It is not a property we have by nature.
And while you make a true statement, we say that this has nothing to do with whether humans have immortal souls. Is not satan immortal in his condemnation? So is the human soul of the reprobate.
FK: "In addition, what makes you think that the damned will not know where they are?"
What will they "know" separated from God who is everything and all?
They will know THAT, plus the reality of their existence in hell.
What will they "see" being separated from Light? What will they "feel" being separated from Love?
I think it's Rev. 20 that tells us about the "Lake of Fire". In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we are clearly told that the rich man was well aware of his surroundings. The condemned will feel whatever causes weeping and gnashing of teeth (e.g. fire).
How will the condemned be any different from a rock? Is the prospect of being separated from everything for all eternity not torture itself?
Rocks do not experience torture, so again I don't see how you can say this since it appears to clearly contradict.
"Dancing with Armenians". It sounds like it should be a TV show or a movie at the least. :O)
“”Dancing with Armenians””
Its like “Dances with Wolves”, only different!
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