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To: kosta50; HarleyD; Kolokotronis
FK: "Does this mean that in Orthodoxy, the spiritual and the physical are treated the same, or in fact ARE the same?"

I am not sure where you get this idea or what you mean by this.

At physical death, the physical body returns to dust, meaning nothingness. The physical body is mortal. I was asking if you thought that the same thing happens to the condemned soul at physical death (or judgment) because you say it is also mortal.

Is man immortal by nature?

Spiritually, "Yes". Adam had an immortal soul when he was created. The fact that he sinned did not change that.

If a soul is created immortal, then it is divine by nature. The Church always believed that man is made immortal by grace.

Where does that rule come from? If you are made immortal by grace, do you then have the divine nature or essence? Of course not. I don't see the distinction.

We are given life in Christ. It is not a property we have by nature.

And while you make a true statement, we say that this has nothing to do with whether humans have immortal souls. Is not satan immortal in his condemnation? So is the human soul of the reprobate.

FK: "In addition, what makes you think that the damned will not know where they are?"

What will they "know" separated from God who is everything and all?

They will know THAT, plus the reality of their existence in hell.

What will they "see" being separated from Light? What will they "feel" being separated from Love?

I think it's Rev. 20 that tells us about the "Lake of Fire". In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we are clearly told that the rich man was well aware of his surroundings. The condemned will feel whatever causes weeping and gnashing of teeth (e.g. fire).

How will the condemned be any different from a rock? Is the prospect of being separated from everything for all eternity not torture itself?

Rocks do not experience torture, so again I don't see how you can say this since it appears to clearly contradict.

10,378 posted on 11/04/2007 11:21:47 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50

“Is man immortal by nature?

Spiritually, “Yes”. “

I am really astonished at this! No wonder you guys believe what you do. I honestly never knew this.


10,381 posted on 11/04/2007 12:06:24 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Forest Keeper
At physical death, the physical body returns to dust, meaning nothingness. The physical body is mortal

It is the soul that animates the body. For someone to die, one's soul must experience (spiritual) death (alienation from God). When the Protestants say we are born "dead" they mean spiritually deprived of life.

Kosta: Is man immortal by nature?

FK: Spiritually, "Yes"

No! The immortality of the soul is conditional on God's grace. Fallen from grace, there is no life (God) in us.

The immortality of man was not "created" as his essence; it was attained from the tree of life; if we are immortal by nature, we would be God and we could not sin.

Adam and Eve were created neither mortal nor immortal, but potentially both.

Where does that rule come from? If you are made immortal by grace, do you then have the divine nature or essence?

That's a nonsensical question, FK. :)  Immortality is attained through Grace. It's not an immutable quality of our nature.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, we are clearly told that the rich man was well aware of his surroundings. The condemned will feel whatever causes weeping and gnashing of tee

The Jews believed that the afterlife was no different than the present life. In fact, in that same story, Lazarus is carried by the angels and the rich man is simply buried. Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom, and the rich man is begging Abraham to "save" him.

It's a verbal tapestry woven for the pubic to understand, but it also contains Christian concepts mixed with Judaic traditions. We know that being deprived of God is extremely uncomfortable for a soul, even unbearable. We do not know the true nature of that torment, but it has been likened to burning and gnashing of the teeth for the common man to understand.

10,382 posted on 11/04/2007 12:08:26 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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