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Our Mormon Brothers?
Reformed Evangelist ^ | May 14th, 2007 | Jeff Fuller

Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock

Mormon Evangelists

The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:

The First Vision

Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:

That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.

This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)

And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,

Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)

How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:

14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).

What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.

While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)

————————————————-

(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.

(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:

The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.

(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:

This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).

(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: apologetics; boggsforgovernor; brothers; christianity; lds; mormon; mormonism; orthodoxy
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To: Enosh

I think Mormons are equal to all other faiths.... and sects of the Christian umbrella.... and I hear they believe in science too.


981 posted on 07/12/2007 10:07:01 PM PDT by Porterville (I'm an American. If you hate Americans, I hope our enemies destroy you. I will pray for my soul.)
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To: Enosh
"Enter Porter, "Nah, yer' all going to Hell. Just us Catholics make it in. Da' Pope done said so."

Well alllrightythen."

Counter the ridiculous with the ridiculous and then you win the fight.

982 posted on 07/12/2007 10:11:42 PM PDT by Porterville (I'm an American. If you hate Americans, I hope our enemies destroy you. I will pray for my soul.)
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To: MarkBsnr
But what is your definition of God versus god?

The rest of your post seems to suffer from schizophrenia and to cover so many topics in such a fashion that I am failing to detect a coherent question or direction from them. It seems you don't think we are right, and that's OK, it's your opinion, but if you want answers, you need to ask coherent questions, try smaller posts with specific questions..
983 posted on 07/12/2007 10:32:33 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: colorcountry
CC, in all seriousness are we not to continue discussions from previous threads? I had never heard this rule, where can I find the definitive rule set?

Thanks in advance for any help.

984 posted on 07/12/2007 10:38:09 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Osage Orange
Have you ever considered that you don't have all the answers?

I have what i have and I seek af ther what I yet lack, Yes, apperances to the contrary not withstanding, I am keenly aware of my shortcomings. I asume that everyone on this forum is aware of their own shortcomings, maybe that is an error, but I will assume it none the less. The thing is....with all humility I'm right about that post of yours.....

You in fact "typed" and "sounded"....just like Restornu.


I couldn't do it again on a bet, Sorry.
985 posted on 07/12/2007 10:42:23 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: MarkBsnr
Would any pro Mormon care to have discourse on http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/1861095/posts?page=921#921?

There seems to be certain silence.


On # 918, I said I needed to go do some work now, if you expect an immediate response, post to someone who has no announced their temporary departure.

Nothing follows...









Look, I told you there is nothing here, so stop reading.
986 posted on 07/12/2007 10:45:58 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: restornu; Osage Orange
Well at least my alter ego can spell and use correct grammar!:)

This increasingly theoretical poster would not be me.
987 posted on 07/12/2007 10:52:37 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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.
988 posted on 07/12/2007 10:55:36 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: Porterville
As the Pope says, they are as much Christian as any other branch....

Can you send me a link to this?
989 posted on 07/12/2007 10:55:59 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: restornu

“You just never know their might be a grassroots who would like to run the LDS out of Utah.

I heard similar expression from fastcoyote, and maybe Utah binger and who know how many others have this agenda?”

Pretty crappy of you resty, implying some sort of church burning frenzy on our part where there is none. Let me suggest that quite a few gentiles have been driven out of business by your saints, so maybe you ought to look to yourself before you start in on the bigotry game you play.


990 posted on 07/12/2007 11:05:04 PM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: FastCoyote

Did you not at one time when CC talked about this before say something like it?

There was some remark you have made in the past serveral weeks caught my attention at the time!

sorry forgot the Fast on Coyote

***
To: colorcountry; Coyote; ComeUpHigher
No I read you post CC and you indicated it yourself and I read between the lines!

I also heard express something simular maybe he would like to clarify it?

And by all means if you did not mean that you should have never signled out the LDS, but you can clarify if you would care too!

955 posted on 07/12/2007 7:51:28 PM EDT by restornu

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1861095/posts?page=955#955


991 posted on 07/12/2007 11:28:01 PM PDT by restornu (Romney keeps his eyes on the mission, and not on those who attacks his campaign!)
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To: DelphiUser; Osage Orange

We are night and day in our style of posting how Osage Orange makes that leap is amuzing!:)


992 posted on 07/12/2007 11:44:45 PM PDT by restornu (Romney keeps his eyes on the mission, and not on those who attacks his campaign!)
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To: FastCoyote

If I confused you with someone else I apologized FastCoyote!


993 posted on 07/12/2007 11:46:43 PM PDT by restornu (Romney keeps his eyes on the mission, and not on those who attacks his campaign!)
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To: DelphiUser
I’m sorry, was I paraphrasing... it’s an evolutionary science thing.
994 posted on 07/13/2007 2:12:22 AM PDT by Porterville (I'm an American. If you hate Americans, I hope our enemies destroy you. I will pray for my soul.)
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To: DelphiUser; Porterville
"As the Pope says, they are as much Christian as any other branch...."

"Can you send me a link to this?"

I'm pretty sure Porter meant this. -> Link

995 posted on 07/13/2007 4:00:35 AM PDT by Enosh (†)
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To: Enosh
Because Revelation 20:6 happens before Revelation 20:12.
 
Indeed it does, and verses 1-5 come before that:
 
 
Revelation 20
 
 1.  And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
 2.  He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
 3.  He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
 4.  I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5.  (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
 6.  Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
 7.  When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
 8.  and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
 9.  They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
 10.  And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 11.  Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
 12.  And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
 13.  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
 14.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
 15.  If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Verse 4 has the folks who died in the TRIBULATION.  If we Christians are alive during this time, and refuse the mark and are beheaded, then WE are going to be in this group.
If, however, we have already shed this mortal coil and are in our grave, then verse 5 kicks in - AFTER the 1,000 years are over.
 



When you point to Rev 20:12 it is also important to note this Great Judgment has certain humans excluded from it, as in the Bride of Christ ... the Lambs Book of Life is not the book opened in Rev 20:12.
 
Oh; but it is...
KJV Luke 10:20
   Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

KJV Philippians 4:3
  And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

KJV Revelation 3:5
  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, .but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

KJV Revelation 13:8
  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

KJV Revelation 17:8
  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

KJV Revelation 20:12
   And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

KJV Revelation 20:15
   And whosoever was not found written in the book of life  was cast into the lake of fire.

KJV Revelation 21:26-27
   And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

KJV Revelation 22:19
   And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life,  and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
 
There are no TWO books of life; just one.
 
There's no paperback version with some names in it, and a leather bound, thin papered, gilt lettered one with CHRISTIANS WITHIN lettered on it's cover.
 
The Book of Life IS the Lamb's Book of Life!


996 posted on 07/13/2007 4:31:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
My God died for me on the cross....

The FLESH that His Spirit was using died.

997 posted on 07/13/2007 4:31:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
That just wasn't nice, go and wash your mouth out with water!

No soap??

Actually, although it's NOT a law in Indiana, no restaurant will hire a clown to be a cook.

The customers say the food tastes funny.

998 posted on 07/13/2007 4:33:58 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
This is pathetic, but funny!

That's the effect I was aiming at!

999 posted on 07/13/2007 4:34:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
Non Mormons may not get it...

You are indeed a prophet!

1,000 posted on 07/13/2007 4:35:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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