Our Mormon Brothers?

Reformed Evangelist ^ | May 14th, 2007 | Jeff Fuller

[Gamecock]

The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:

The First Vision

Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:

That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.

This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)

And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,

Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)

How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:

14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).

What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.

While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)

————————————————-

(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.

(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:

The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.

(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:

This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).

(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.

[Old Mountain man]

No, child, I have been busy supporting my family by working 500 miles from home. I have two missionaries in the field to support.

[Old Mountain man]

Sorry, my friend and fellow conservative, I only have one persona and this is it.

[MHGinTN]

Secret decoder ring placemarker

[restornu]

That was a belly buster! LOL

[185JHP]

The stuff about “satan is a spirit brother of Jesus” is also a problem...

[colorcountry]

They believe that Jesus is their own spirit brother as well as Satan....all one big happy family of God’s children. It is really convoluted.

[185JHP]

Thanks

[DelphiUser]

You said: It was difficult to follow your post. But still, yes, in a previous post you did admit that it was "natural" to become like Jesus. I provided several scriptures to show that is not just "unnatural", but it is impossible and it is the sin of pride, as was Satan's that we can become like God.

You supplied several scriptures that you then interpreted as meaning it was impossible, and a sin. I disagree with your interpretation, the rest of your reasoning being built on this faulty interpretation of the bible falls of it's own weight.

I am not trying to argue with you, just tell you I disagree with your interpretation, and I really don't have to argue your interpretation, just tell you I disagree.

You said: I did make a mistake on my post in saying that it was the lie of Satan when it should have said one of his lies. And it is a main one. The sinful nature of man desires to be like God. Not just in knowing good and evil, but in many, many ways. And Satan preys on that prideful, sinful nature in man, to the effect that if they just do all these things, one of them even being that they say the "believe" in Jesus, that they will have eternal life. Nonetheless, it does not negate the whole point, in that man desires to be like God and that is a root of many, if not all sin.

Satan did not lie when he told Eve in Genesis 3:5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Satan actually told the truth here God says So in Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Your whole premise here is that Satan lied to eve about becoming like God and that it was a sin, satan did not lie, and it was not a sin, the rest of your post goes increasingly away from the truth form there on.

You said: Mormons not only denied the God of the bible by redefining who He is, not just the Father, but God the Son and even God the Holy Spirit, and then it adds to that blaspheme by saying that you have to DO things to earn your way to heaven. Your posts and others Mormon apologists here have confirmed that.

From your perspective Everything you just said is true, from mine it is all 100% wrong. Since God is separate from Jesus in physical form and they both have a Body of flash and bone (now that Jesus is resurrected) and the holy Ghost is a Spirit and they are one in purpose as Jesus said in John 17:22 Which says "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" This is a simile drawn by Jesus Christ himself as to the Oneness of the Godhead (biblical term here, unlike trinity or Triune which are not in the bible)

So, from my perspective the blasphemy was perpetrated by Constantine a pagan who changed the very beliefs of the church and completed the apostasy of the early Christian church by mandating a change (destroying the former beliefs of the Arians, Justin Martyr, and Hippolytus to name a few) with this act the Catholic church rejected centuries of belief and the testimony of the apostles, and began to mix greek philosophy in with scripture and mysticism, thus it lost the Authority in all respects that it had already been losing through unrighteous dominion.

My position and perspective is just as valid as yours, and just as supportable from scripture it is sad that you have been too close minded to understand that so far.

You said: However, as the Word says in 1 John, any teaching (spirit) that denies that God Himself, the Holy One of Israel become flesh to die, once and for all for our salvation is not of God. Mormons not only denied the God of the bible by redefining who He is, not just the Father, but God the Son and even God the Holy Spirit, and then it adds to that blaspheme by saying that you have to DO things to earn your way to heaven. Your posts and others creations apologists here have confirmed that.

You guys crack me up, you keep running for the side line of but you already confirmed my point of view when we have not. LOL! Are you truly that afraid of an open and hones discussion?

If we are right about God, then you are the one who is blaspheming, and you can verbally jump up and down all you want but the fact is that our interpretation is just as valid as yours, and makes more sense.

The work you are so upset about makes more sense, we believe that when we accept Jesus we will keep his commandments. What you appear to be promoting is that all you have to do is accept Jesus and you don't have to change a thing in your life for Jesus has already saved you, so sin all you want, it's been paid for (which in my view makes God the author of more sin, and in my view is yours is the doctrine of laziness -- Join Our church, be saved, keep sinning, go to heaven). From my perspective what you are preaching makes absolutely no sense Biblically.

You said: Either the Almighty, One and Only God Himself has already redeemed us because we are unable, or He has not. You have said that over, and over in many forms, if not using those exact words.

Jesus has indeed paid for our sins. We may not be saved if we do not accept him and start obeying his commandments. It's a contract that he has already kept his end of, we just have to keep ours and it takes more than just lip service.

You said: Scripture makes if very clear that those who deny Him, as the Mormons do, are not of His fold.

Mormons do many things, deny Christ is not one of them.

You said: Now, there are many who claim to know Him, who do not try to redefine God, but yet in their hearts, their trust is still in themselves.

You claim to know him, yet you believe in the redefinition that happened in 325 AD, pity.

You said: But other cults, such as LDS, DO make it much easier to spot.

LOL, the name calling begins! Ok, Continues! All organized religion is technically a cult, so while technically correct, you are using it in the pejorative sense, which is incorrect. Mormons are no more a cult than the Catholics or the methodists or the pentacostals or any other Protestant church you care to name.

That does not mean they aren't nice and friendly people, it just means they don't belong to His fold. His definition, not mine.

Your definition, not his, your interpretation, not his, you judge us, and not righteously,

You said: You confess a Jesus that is not of the bible.

I confess the Jesus of the Bible by the correct interpretation, you confess one created by a pagan Emperor of Rome.

You said: The Mormon Jesus is simply not the Jesus of scripture.

Actually, We know Jesus much better than you would think, modern revelation and all that.

You said: I also understand that you cannot see that at this time. Perhaps some day you will.

Right back at you, and actually, I am the one who can see both perspectives here, you don't even admit the possibility that my perspective might have merit. It's almost like you are afraid I might be right and you are fighting against it because of that fear.

You said: I realize that you are trying to shoot me down.

I have no interest in "Shooting you down" I would rather build you up and teach you truth, I would rather testify that Jesus Lives and that he has saved you if you will just accept his atonement and begin keeping his commandments!

But you would rather argue points of Doctrine, sigh.

You said: I really don't care. I am not out to "trap" anyone, but to expose what is not God's truth when it is proclaimed that it is God's Truth.

Your posts here belie your words. However, you must understand that I believe I have all the truth you are trying to offer me, plus some added perspectives. what you offer me is the opportunity to forget additional truth and light. Sorry, not interested.

You said: I am not ashamed of the gospel, that it is Jesus Christ, the Almighty God in the flesh, who was was the fulfillment, completion of the Law so that all those who call on His name, His nature, will be saved.

Great, I call upon his name, I obey his commands, I am following his will to the best of my imperfect ability. I am saved. Yet, you deny me event the name Christian.

You said: It isn't about me, or you or Joseph Smith or anyone else except the Lord God, Jesus Christ.

On that we can completely agree. It's all about Jesus, not us, not any mere mortal like Joseph Smith, prophet or not, it's not about Joseph, it's about Jesus.

You said: When you can address all the other scriptures that have been posted, then I would be happy to address the small issue that you have for trying to make men into gods which seems like you just tried to deny that you said you believe. Otherwise, I really don't have the time for this. I love to discuss God's Word, but only if it is a true discussion that is edifying and exalts His Name.

I have no interest in addressing all the scriptures posted by everyone, as for the ones you posted, I'll take a look, but since they are based upon a false premise (that Satan lied when he told eve she would learn the difference between Good and Evil and thus be like God, God confirmed that statement) Forgive me for lumping your scriptures together in responses, but I am not going to be repetitive, I have had complaints about the size of my posts, and I am trying to cut down. I am going to link your scriptures, and only quote the salient parts.

Isaiah 14:13-14 will make myself like the Most High
We do not propose to make ourselves like creations most high, we propose to keep God's commands and if we are worthy to be exalted to such a station we will be happy to accept it, but it will be God's doing, not ours.

Ezekiel 28:2, 10you have said, 'I am a god
Tyrus and Zidon had proclaimed themselves to be Gods and were denying the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, thus they were told they would die at the hands of the "Uncircumcised" as a punishment for usrping God's place. Mormons do not deny God, we do not seek to take his place. Mormons are not Kings who have declared themselves Gods, we are just people, children of God as the Scriptures say and if later we become God, that is Gods affair and we cannot do it ourselves, not can we coerce him into it. We can obey and strive to be worthy for this the Goal of our existence as told to us by him.

1 Sam 2:2there is none besides you
Mormons have no God but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our creator, our redeemer, our Lord, Our God.

2 Sam 7:22:For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you
God is the only creator, there is none like him and for us there is no God but him.

Eph 2:4-10God {snip} made us alive, For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
We are indeed God's creation, we are also his children Jesus Said So As for Being Saved by grace, I ask you, the Jews had all these laws, and Jesus came and fulfilled them. Jesus then gave us new laws. are we not to keep his commands now like the Jews of old were to keep his commands then? Your position that We are saved by grace in spite of all we do is in direct contradiction with the truth which is that we are saved by Grace after all we can do.

But in the end, we both agree it is grace that saves us. You might want to review James 2:15-26

For faith without works is indeed dead. A man is justified by Faith wrought with Works, not works alone, not faith alone, but by works can your faith be made perfect.

Now, I have answered your questions, I am sleepy for this much review of what I consider basics has made me so, I will post this and wish you pleasnt dreams.

[DelphiUser]

I agree. Mormoms are not necessarily "bad" people. Most of them that I know are very nice and I gladly call them friends. It is just that they are not true believers in the Lord God Jesus Christ.

Have you discussed this with them?

If not why are you willing to here, but not to people who know you?

If you do discuss with them their lack of Christianity, let us all know the conversation goes.

[MHGinTN]

Lupie, how can one discuss with an one who would asseet the following and then go on for paragraphs spittling forth in heavy condescension: "Your whole premise here is that Satan lied to eve about becoming like God and that it was a sin, satan did not lie, and it was not a sin, the rest of your post goes increasingly away from the truth form there on." Clearly Satan lied when he stated 'you shall not surely die' and scriptures tell us clearly that the wages of sin is death so eating of the tree was sin else the first couple would not have been under the penalty that followed.

Please keep in mind, lupie, the poster is the same one who claims he can't get a good debate because of his superiority to fellow posters whom he deigns to address. [In my best Darth Vader immitation voice ... ] 'The condescension is strong with this one.'

[DelphiUser]

Nice try, but no soup for you.

I prefer the steak anyway you soup nazi (sinefeld refence here not actual insult, OK?)

BYU has made available oblique arguments, but the truth is DNA shows the Native Americans (those people of darker skin the novel 'Book of Mormon' claimed were Lamanites) are related to Asians not Israelites.

I can't believe you are still trying to go here. It would be a remarkable feat if the DNA matched, the expectation is that it would not for Judah and Joseph had different mothers so the mitochondrial DNA matching was doomed from the beginning, not to mention that the men in the BOM ,married Women from outside the Line you are supposing to trace with DNA passed from other to daughter, so that's lost too. On top of that, the Indians would inter marry with anybody (white black spanish etc.) so there was no "Pure Indians DNA to work with. I would be more surprised to see a match than the expected, "nope, not enough pieces", and I have programmed DNA searches, so give me a little credit here, your "Proof" is not even remotely credible, go read the article on FARMS.

If Native Americans were related to Israelite, the DNA would show it.

So you think your step brother's mitochondrial (DNA from Mom) would show you were related? Get a grip.

It doesn't, it points inexorably to Asians.

Actually it's also a pretty good match to Scandanavians, but who cares, it does not prove anything, for or against.

Sling a few more dirt clods at the messenger, it will not change the DNA into something it is not to make it verify the lies of the Book of Mormon.

I slung no dirt, only words (grin) Mormons never said it would prove the BOM true, we have enough proof already to be very comfortable with our faith.

BUT WAIT! The assertions of the B of M are not lies if they aren't touted as truth. So, do you want to claim the B of M doesn't claim historically that Native Americans are descended from Israelite?

Shure, they are descendants of Joseph, Step Brother to Judah to whom you are trying to compare matriarchal DNA, it was a flawed study, get over it, it does not prove anything, because the people doing the test did not read their Bible and notice hat Jacob and Judah had different mothers.

Are you frustrated that we opposers to the heresies of Mormonism won't sit down and shut up when slammed by your 'superior' but empty arguments?

Actually, no, it is gratifying when our opponents go to ridiculous lengths to denigrate us, Phony DNA studies, ridiculous examples, postings to anti movies online.
I will tell you one tactic used by Mormons on these threads because it will not matter, the anti's will not be able to help themselves. We answer unreasonableness with reason.
That's it, we come on here and post with scripture that supports our point of view, we are attacked, slandered, and vilified. We do not get mad, for we are here for that very thing, you see the lurkers see the venom, the illogic, the unchristlike behavior of our opponents, and they come to us for more information. Rant all you want, call me names, i did six years in Technical support, My goat is too tired to be gotten, and I can play verbal word games with multiple people at once with no problem, so go ahead, call em names it will only server my cause, or don't that serves my cause too.

Is it frustrating to you that those you have condescendingly claimed cannot match your debating powers merely post the truth about Smith and his fabrications and that exposes the foolishness at the heart of Mormonism?

If people were posting the truth, I would have nothing to do here. as for frustrating, no, I allowed that to happen once, I will not allow it to happen again. As tot he debate, Grin, I was really good, and I did not have half the preoperation and resources we have now. On my mission, I even helped an atheist to see the light, here, I just point the way for lurkers, which reminds me.

To find out more, and not from those who hate us so much they will say the things you see on this forum, go here Or, here or to see a brief synopsis of the LDS churches actual beliefs, go here We promise not to tell any of the antis here you went. The 'ISM' is in gross error. The people need to hear the truth about the ISM.

Speaking of frustration, it must frustrate you that we can post links that lead people away from your misinformation to places where they can learn in peace.

MHG, I truly wish you a good night, may god bless your dreams, may his spirit strive with you on the morrow.

[DelphiUser]

Is this other earth outside the "heavens?" If not, there may be a bit of a paradox here.

Of course it is, I told you we were having a problem of scope (Mine is bigger than yours). We (You and I, mortals) will never see that earth, for God's creations are all that we (another of his creations) can and will perceive, thus he is the creator of all.

[DelphiUser]

If you don't agree with Jesus, what is your answer to Matthew 22:28?

It was a trick question, like the atheists God can't make a rock bigger than he can lift question.

If more than one of them make it to the highest degree of Glory, she will go with her first husband, unless he is not in the Group who were righteous, if there are more than one second husband worhty, she will get to choose.

[MHGinTN]

"If people were posting the truth, I would have nothing to do here." Sadly, you appear incapable of discerning truth when it is offered. Good luck with that ... but then you have already assured us you're under matched at FR so I marvel that you deign to even address some of us.

Are you familiar with the Levitical Priesthood, BTW? And the absolute requirement in Judaism that the Priests of the Temple be of the line of Levi? And that it is the Y chromosome which passes the father specific lineage? And that a specific mutational marker on the Y chromosome has been identified for the Levitical Priesthood and made it possible to trace the DNA in the Lemba tribe of southern Africa to prove they are descended from Israelites? And that it is not the mitochondrial DNA which is most prominently used now in genetic verification for ancestry once general direction of ancestry has been established? No, it's obvious you don't know all these things else you wouldn't post the talking points obfuscation from BYU when questioned on the DNA evidence which proves Native Ameircans are descended from Asians not Israelites. But I'm sure you enjoy your deceptions because you do so much of it! Have a nice night.

[DelphiUser]

Lupie, how can one discuss with any one who would asseet the following and then go on for paragraphs spittling forth in heavy condescension: "Your whole premise here is that Satan lied to eve about becoming like God and that it was a sin, satan did not lie, and it was not a sin, the rest of your post goes increasingly away from the truth form there on." Clearly Satan lied when he stated 'you shall not surely die' and scriptures tell us clearly that the wages of sin is death so eating of the tree was sin else the first couple would not have been under the penalty that followed.

Sigh, its tireing to be misquoted.

In post # 364 I Said and I quote

Lets tackle this Eve, believed Satan's lie about becoming like God thing once and for all, OK?

In Genesis 3:4-5 it says:

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

So, Satan told eve two things, 1) she would not Die and 2) she would be as the Gods knowing Good and evil. In Genesis 3:19 It says:

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

we see God telling Adam the he will die (return to dust) In Genesis 3:22 it says:

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Notice the part I bolded? God said Man had become "one of Us" These prove A) That Satan lied about Dieing. B) That Satan did not lie about become as god knowing Good and evil C) the Godhead made up of discrete, but harmonious beings is the correct interpretation of God's being.

So, I was indeed correct in that Satan lied about Death, and not about becomeing like God in that Adam and Even now knew good and evil.

Please keep in mind, lupie, the poster is the same one who claims he can't get a good debate because of his superiority to fellow posters whom he deigns to address.

Well, misquoting me in such an easilly findable way does not help your case, Grin.

[In my best Darth Vader immitation voice ... ] 'The condescension is strong with this one.'

Do you think your post was humble?

P.S. you forgot to ping me again.

[DelphiUser]

I said: "If people were posting the truth, I would have nothing to do here."

You Said: Sadly, you appear incapable of discerning truth when it is offered.
Good luck with that ...
but then you have already assured us you're under matched at FR so I marvel that you deign to even address some of us.

Sometimes, I even amaze myself...

You Said: Are you familiar with the Levitical Priesthood, BTW? And the absolute requirement in Judaism that the Priests of the Temple be of the line of Levi? And that it is the Y chromosome which passes the father specific lineage? And that a specific mutational marker on the Y chromosome has been identified for the Levitical Priesthood and made it possible to trace the DNA in the Lemba tribe of southern Africa to prove they are descended from Israelites?

The book of mormon does not have any Levites traveling with Lehi to the new world.

And that it is not the mitochondrial DNA which is most prominently used now in genetic verification for ancestry once general direction of ancestry has been established?

Mitchondrial is (from what I have been able to find on the web) the root of the DNA evidence that is supposedly agains the BOM. If you have a site that details A Y Chromoaomw search, for a non Levite DNA, but a tribe of Joseph DNA sample, then I am very interested... I am not interested in looking for what I know will not be there.

No, it's obvious you don't know all these things else you wouldn't post the talking points obfuscation from BYU when questioned on the DNA evidence which proves Native Ameircans are descended from Asians not Israelites.

LOL! Actually, it does not prove that either, only that it "Resmebles " it it also resembles the DNA of Scandanavia for example.

But I'm sure you enjoy your deceptions because you do so much of it!
Have a nice night.
Same to you... about the nice night.

[DelphiUser]

G’ night

[Enosh]

"Of course it is, I told you we were having a problem of scope"

So Mormonism includes multiple universes not just new planets for the various gods? Interesting.

"thus he is the creator of all."

Wait, isn't another universe still part of "all?" If not, then you seem to be limiting God's power.

If there are multiple universes, I would say that God created them all, thus as you put it, my God "is bigger than yours."

[Enosh]

"Matthew 22:28"

"It was a trick question"

That's right and Jesus told the Sadducees that they were in error, then explained why.

"... if there are more than one second husband worhty, she will get to choose."

And you have rejected Jesus' explanation, thereby you have rejected God's Word.

[lupie]

Have you discussed this with them?

Not just myself, but several of our kids.

If not why are you willing to here, but not to people who know you?

You assumed wrong. You know what they say about assuming things. In this case it is partly true ;)

If you do discuss with them their lack of Christianity, let us all know the conversation goes.

The ongoing discussions, are not really any of your business because they are not a public discussion as this discussion is, nor do they offer anything to this conversation. And I am not also aware of the details of what others are discussing with him. And actually, I have a Godly confidence and hope that in time at least one will come to true faith in Christ Jesus. Perhaps he will then lead his family out. What a blessed day that would be!