There's a couple of tough customers you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.
Posted on 03/08/2007 10:46:35 AM PST by NYer
"The Catholic right is uglier and meaner than anyone on the religious right, worse than the Falwells and Robertsons," said Kissling, who stepped down as president of the organization March 1. "The viciousness of the [William] Donohues, the Deal Hudsons, the George Weigels and the [Fr.] Richard John Neuhauses is soul-numbing," said Kissling.
Now that hurts. Not so much as a mention of Catholic World News, and after all we've had to say over the years about Catholics for a Free Choice, too. I guess we went wrong by exaggerating the Mister Nice Guy approach and always stressing the positive -- even about those we criticise -- as a basis for finding common ground. There just ain't no justice out there.
Joe Feuerherd's excellent NCR interview with Frances Kissling on the occasion of her retirement from CFFC is a very interesting read. She is peevishly critical of many of her fellow lefties, including and especially Catholic lefties. Feuerherd is to be congratulated for preserving so much of Kissling's candor in his article, and the NCR deserves credit for publishing it. Regrettably, it's subscriber-only access, but I think I can pass on the following excerpts without violating the fair use boundaries.
Having dismissed Voice of the Faithful as ineffective, Kissling says:
"Look at all the rest of us, Call to Action, ARCC [the Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church], Dignity, the Women's Ordination Conference." So small in number and influence, Kissling said, that "the movement doesn't exist."
It's no better -- worse in fact, she said -- on the political front, where such groups as Sojourners, the Washington-based liberal evangelical political action group, and the Catholic Alliance for the Common Good, the recently formed effort to counter the religious right, "have gotten a free ride." Kissling said, "They make claims about their effectiveness in the 2006 elections" that are not borne out by the facts.
Heresy. And it's interesting that she sees lefty Catholics' crush on the Democratic Party to be as pointless as are the hopes of conservative Catholics that the GOP will do the right thing by pro-lifers:
Meanwhile, Kissling said, the progressive religious community's efforts to ingratiate itself with the Democratic Party works against the efforts of church reformers, especially feminists. "It is threatening because what the Democratic Party wants from religion is respectability and credibility. They want a rabbi with a yarmulke on his head, a minister who wears a collar or some religious garb. They want a mainstream respectable image of religion.
"There's nothing respectable about a gay rabbi and almost nothing respectable about a woman pastor who is a feminist. They don't call up and say, 'Send me [feminist theologian] Mary Hunt, send me your most radical spokesperson within your denomination.' They call and say, 'Do you have a nun who still wears a habit who can show up at my press conference [or] can you send me a collar?'"
The fact that such tokens of respectability are still tokens of respectability 40 years after Vatican II speaks volumes about the progressivist claim that they impede the pastoral encounter. As for the myth of the existence of the "personally opposed" Catholic, the following quote will seem to most OTR readers to state the obvious. It's significant, though, that Kissling is the one to say it:
Moreover, she said, there's more than a "degree of hypocrisy" among many Catholic progressives, many of whom, she says, don't believe that abortion is "always immoral and should be illegal."
"My experience in the progressive movement in the church is that most of the people I work with are personally pro-choice and will simply not admit it publicly," she said. "They think it will be bad for their organization and they want to continue to have ties to the hierarchy, to parishes, and they know if they come out on abortion they are going to be totally marginalized within the institution, so it's the one [issue] on which they lie the most."
Kissling said, "I have more respect for people who are genuinely antiabortion and who say it than I do for many of my colleagues ... who lie about this issue, who refuse to take a stand on this issue."
No argument, Frances. It isn't often we agree, but you're on target here. Tell your Uncle Di: was it in anticipation of this tender concord that you left us off your Vicious List?
Sort of complements the other thread on Cardinal Mahony's Congress.
I love it. Kissling attacks her ideological allies on her way out. She's spot-on in everything she says about the dissident Catholic groups being losers too.
Yes, does this quote not SCREAM out "Cardinal Mahony! Cardinal Mahony!":
My experience in the progressive movement in the church is that most of the people I work with are personally pro-choice and will simply not admit it publicly," she said. "They think it will be bad for their organization and they want to continue to have ties to the hierarchy, to parishes, and they know if they come out on abortion they are going to be totally marginalized within the institution, so it's the one [issue] on which they lie the most.
The upshot of Kissling's entire comments:
The pro-abortion movement is hampered in the Catholic Church, because it is so obvious to the entire world that anyone who is pro-abortion is not authentically Catholic. Thus, unlike all other heresies, this one "progressive movement" must be like the "love that dare not speak its name."
How true it is that the thinnest veneer of orthodoxy is used by the most diabolically heretical to subvert authentic Catholicism, and that the pro-abortion movement is incapable of eveb such a veneer! How powerful it would be if the American Catholic Church would follow Rome and assert that toleration of abortionism is the same as acceptance, and thusly excommunicate Kerry, Pelosi, Daschle, Kennedy, Biden, Durbin, and the rest of satanic ejaculate that defiles "the seemless gown."
This is just such an evil mentality. If you don't believe what the Catholic Church teaches, go elsewhere. This is a free society. For her to insist that the Catholic Church has to change its teachings is itself a denial of freedom to orthodox believers.
Just wait until you meet God Ms. Kissling.
There's a couple of tough customers you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.
It would be stunning if the American Catholic Church would follow Rome in anything. Personally, I think they have "misunderestimated" BXVI and they may be having their final fling without even knowing it. We shall see.
Dear dangus,
"How powerful it would be if the American Catholic Church would follow Rome and assert that toleration of abortionism is the same as acceptance, and thusly excommunicate Kerry, Pelosi, Daschle, Kennedy, Biden, Durbin, and the rest of satanic ejaculate that defiles 'the seemless gown.'"
And, while we're at it, how about Mr. Giuliani, and Mr. Schwarzenegger, and Mr. Pataki, to name a few?
sitetest
Well, Schwartzenegger and Giuliani have hardly ever tried to play up their Catholicism, or use it as a political tool in the way Kerry, Pelosi, Deschle, Kennedy and Biden have... AFAIK, Giuliani is no longer practicing in any way, as opposed to the typical Eucharistic photo-op of the Democrats I mentioned.
Dear dangus,
"Well, Schwartzenegger and Giuliani have hardly ever tried to play up their Catholicism, or use it as a political tool in the way Kerry, Pelosi, Deschle, Kennedy and Biden have..."
I'm sorry, but I don't see that Mr. Biden, in particular, has played up his Catholicism. I didn't even know he was Catholic.
Speaking of Mr. Daschle, he stopped claiming to be a Catholic some years ago, after he re-married outside the Church, and his local bishop asked him to stop representing himself as a good Catholic.
On the other hand, Mr. Giuliani specifically went out of his way to find the loophole in his first marriage so that he could re-marry in the Church, because he knew it would be very helpful to appear to be a practicing Catholic when running for mayor.
As well, Mr. Schwarzenegger has never tried to dissuade anyone from the belief that he is a Catholic in good standing.
Your argument, dangus, seems like a case of special pleading.
Let's be consistent. If we're going to call for the excommunication of pro-abort Catholic politicians, ALL OF THEM should be excommunicated, not just the ones we don't like.
And as Catholics, we should urge other Catholics to vote against pro-abort "Catholic" Republicans just as adamantely as we urge other Catholics to vote against pro-abort "Catholic" Democrats.
Otherwise, we're just a bunch of hypocrites.
sitetest
Yes, they are tough customers. God bless them both. Would that we had 100 more just like them.
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I have to disagree with you in the most strident of terms. Every time Senator Biden opens his mouth, it's "as a Catholic..."
OTOH, Giuliani DID get an annulment for his FIRST marriage, and re-married in the Catholic Church. At that time, he was Catholic, and pro-life. His apostasy occurred later, as he was unfaithful to his second wife, divorced her, and remarried a non-Catholic outside the Church, never appearing any more Catholic than Alfonse D'Amato, who went Jewish.
Does anyone remember the nickname given to Mahoney by Pope John Paul II? "Hollywood"! lol
Dear dangus,
"Every time Senator Biden opens his mouth, it's 'as a Catholic...'"
I've never ever heard him say that.
Yet, I've followed him (not closely) since around 1988.
Do you have any citations where he starts his remarks off by saying, "As a Catholic...", other than, perhaps, at a Knights of Columbus event, or similar church event?
I'm reasonably sure that for every quote you can provide where he begins his remarks thusly, I can find 10 where he does not.
The point is - most politicians talk about their religious affiliation at least occasionally, and Mr. Biden not more than most.
As well, I didn't feel that Mr. Kerry was especially trying to push his CATHOLICISM in the last election, but rather his RELIGIOSITY, to appear to match the religiosity taken for granted with Republicans.
Indeed, in the last election, Mr. Kerry actually went to Sunday services, and received Protestant communion, at a METHODIST church.
Hardly a way of emphasizing one's Catholicism.
And that's part of the issue, here. Catholic Republicans don't need to say much about their faith, because folks assume religiosity in Republicans, whereas Democrats often need to make some mention of it, or people assume their just pagan hedonists.
This slight (and double-edged) advantage for Republican politicians shouldn't be used to shield them from Church discipline.
Nonetheless, I don't really here Mr. Kennedy chatting much about his Catholicism, either, other than to tell us that he won't permit his Catholicism to form his conscience in the performance of his civic obligations as a United States Senator. That's hardly putting much of an emphasis on his Catholicism.
I mean, heck, he doesn't NEED to talk about it much. It isn't as if everyone doesn't know he's Catholic.
As well, I've never heard Sen. Mikulski talk much about her Catholicism - but if we're excommunicating pro-abort Catholic politicians, I'd want to see her excommunicated, as well.
In the case of Mr. Giuliani, although objectively he is a Catholic in bad standing (remember, as well, he has not been excommunicated), I've seen posters here at Free Republic say things like, "He's a good Catholic until the Church explicitly says otherwise."
Mr. Giuliani is HAPPY to let folks think he's still a good Catholic. I haven't heard him say otherwise.
Furthermore, with regard to Mr. Giuliani, he certainly ran as a practicing Catholic, albeit a pro-abort Catholic, when he ran for mayor. His second divorce and third "marriage" didn't occur until after he was mayor.
But finally, I DON'T REALLY GIVE A DARN!!
Anyone who has not explicitly renounced Catholic faith is a Catholic. The Vatican made this clear earlier this year in the case of folks who renounce their Catholicism to European governments to avoid paying church taxes. The Vatican ruled that even this level of renunciation does NOT meet the definition of apostasy or defection from the faith, that formal defection from the faith must include formal notification of competent Catholic ecclesiastical authorities.
If he hasn't formally defected from the faith, a Catholic pro-abort American politician is not a defector from the faith. Therefore, he is still a Catholic, albeit a bad Catholic.
Thus, it is ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE to excommunicate each one of them, without regard to party affiliation.
You seem unaware of how hypocritical your position is, and how much that hypocrisy does us damage with pro-life liberals and pro-life Democrats. I have many friends who are pro-life Democrats, and they say that the Republican Party uses us pro-lifers, that the Republican Party takes us for granted, takes us for a ride.
Based on the performance of the last 30+ years, it's hard to disagree with them, although I gamely try. I point out how much stronger we'd be in the Republican Party if they voted their pro-life convictions rather than their liberal political convictions. Occasionally, I succeed with my argument.
But the one place they have us dead to rights if we give it to them is if we insist that somehow, pro-abort Republicans are different, intrinsically, than pro-abort Democrats. We may be able to argue that it's better to have a pro-abort Republican as a US Representative or US Senator, as that could tip control of the chamber to the pro-life Republican Party.
But intrinsically, the two are the same. Your arguments amount to nothing more than special pleading. For the pro-aborts who are also Catholic, they should receive the same treatment under Church discipline: conform to the Church's infallible teaching on life issues, or face excommunication.
sitetest
Dear Antoninus,
"He was about as Catholic as Frances Kissling herself."
Or Rudolph Giuliani.
Or Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Or George Pataki.
sitetest
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