Posted on 09/15/2006 8:49:34 AM PDT by NYer
In the ongoing saga in the Diocese of Orange, Calif., Bishop Tod Brown has formally responded to the Catholic lay group Restore the Sacred. The text of the bishop's letter (dated September 6, 2006), which was sent to a member of Restore the Sacred, is as follows:
I have been reflecting on the meeting I had with you and others from St. Mary's by the Sea Parish on the 10th of July. I was impressed by the love for our Catholic faith and the dedication to St. Mary's by the Sea parish that all of you manifested. You helped me to understand your concerns more fully and I appreciated the clear and respectful way that you answered my questions.
As I told you I would, I directed Father Martin Tran to present in your parish bulletin a fuller, and I trust, acceptable apology and clarification of his views on obedience, mortal sin, and kneeling. He has done this and has assured me that he is hoping to be able to work with you and all those who attend the parish in a respectful and productive manner.
One of the things that came out clearly in your description of the "traditions of St. Mary's" was that I and my predecessors did you no service when we allowed Fr. Johnson to deviate from the liturgical norms set out by church authority. You feel now a sense of betrayal and your request for a restoration of what you consider nine fundamental past traditions reflects your desire to hold on to an experience that has, in some important ways, nourished your faith over a long period of time. I apologize for the hurt and misunderstanding this has caused.
That having been said, let me address the particular requests you made in your document and in your presentation:
My decision on these requests is based upon my ecclesiology. What unifies us most is the Blessed Sacrament that we share at Mass and, most significantly, in the reception of communion. This is where there should be some uniformity in our life as Catholics. Although there is room for variety in music, preaching and the way these rights are celebrated, these all must adhere to the backbone of liturgical legislation set down by the church. Outside the Mass, there is great room for other rites and prayer forms (Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament, 40 Hours devotions, the Liturgy of the Hours, novenas, etc.) which can be done in the "traditional" manner and with the sacred music that is so dear to you. There are even adaptations approved for the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Eucharistic processions, which I think you have had in the past, is one example) which you may wish to consider with Fr. Martin.
I recognize that this letter is likely a disappointment to you. You were hoping for so much more. Be assured that my decisions mean you no disrespect. On the contrary, I hope my clarity makes it possible for us, should you choose, to work together to preserve what you love about the Catholic Church in ways that match our liturgical norms.
In Christ Our Savior,
Most Reverend Tod D. Brown
Bishop of the Diocese of Orange
"odd "
If by "odd" you mean "the work of Satan," I agree.
"odd "
If by "odd" you mean "the work of Satan," I agree.
What did he just say? In actuality all of this standing these modernist bishops are promoting really has to do with emphasizing the finding "the presence of Jesus in the community" rather than in "that breadbox in the altar"
"This is why the Indult is by Diocese"
I think the reason the indult is by diocese is that a universal indult would be the death knell of the anemic, far inferior Novus Ordo.
SSPX forced the enemies of The Church to back down a little, to the extent of instituting an effortlessly ignored indult procedure, but that was just a punt. They still intend to stomp out the Tridentine once and for all.
"...and not subject to manipulation by snot-nosed Committee academics."
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sorry, but the image of a bunch of oh so evolved and pious and inclusive acedemics sitting around a polished oak table with runny noses is just hilarious!
Welcome 'east'!
The Eastern Catholic Churches administer communion, standing. It is a form of reverence. It has taken me a while to distinguish the differences between west and east. Fortunately in my Maronite parish, Father respects both traditions. We kneel during the Words of Institution, receive communion by intinction standing, and may kneel or stand after communion. Then again, as Kolokotronis has pointed out on many occasions, the Maronite Church is the most latinized of all the Eastern Catholic Churches. No matter. We're all respected and accomodated in our personal choice of reverence for the Real Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist. (Keyword being, reverence rather than proscribed posture). Bishop Tod would do well to make a similar distinction.
"We're all respected and accomodated in our personal choice of reverence for the Real Presence of our Lord in the Eucharist."
Truth be told, the reason Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholics stand on Sundays is because it is a celebration of the Resurrection. Kneeling and better yet full prostrations are symbols, in the East, of repentance and by tradition are reserved for weekdays. Reverence is shown by deep bowing.
Different traditions, same Eucharist.
I love your choice of name. Highly inventive.
During the Reformation the Protestants returned to receiving while standing to show there rejection of the Catholic teaching on transubstantiation and to deny a distinction between the ordained clergy and the laity. It is within this historical context that Catholics react against standing for Communion.
I can only speak to my own experience that when young, raised as a member of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, we kneeled at the altar rail when taking communion. We also took both wine and wafer, and the wine was from a communal cup (later they went to individual cups). I was later confirmed in the Catholic church upon marriage. I don't like a lot of the modern "innovations" in the Catholic church, and frankly, the Lutheran church I attended as a child was much more traditional than many modern-day Catholic churches (Tridentine Mass churches being the exception).
"As you have previously posted, you are no longer Catholic. Why on earth are the worship practices of those who are Catholic any of your non-Catholic business?????"
I'm not Black. Guess I can't form or give an opinion on anything that has to do with Blacks. I'm not Hispanic. Guess I can't have an opinion there either. I'm not Jewish, so I can't get on any thread dealing with the Jewish religion. Get it yet? Stop trying to stifle free speech on FREE Republic. That's why we are all on this website.
Explain to me the difference here. Is it a difference without a distinction? I don't get the major difference, if there is one. Would appreciate your interpretation:
Transubstantiaion:
1 : an act or instance of transubstantiating or being transubstantiated
2 : the miraculous change by which according to Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox dogma the eucharistic elements at their consecration become the body and blood of Christ while keeping only the appearances of bread and wine
Consubstantiation:
Main Entry: con·sub·stan·ti·a·tion
Function: noun
Pronunciation: "kän(t)-s&b-"stan(t)-she-'A-sh&n
: the actual substantial presence and combination of the body and blood of Christ with the eucharistic bread and wine according to a teaching associated with Martin Luther -- compare
In consubstantiation it is believed that the substanstance of the bread and wine remain and that our Lord becomes present with the continuing presence of the bread and wine. The "con" in consubstantiation means with the substance.
The Catholic belief in transubstantiation is based on the fact that our Lord said: "This is my body," rather than "Here is my body."
After reading your link regarding denominations, it really points out how far afield from the original Catholic Church the Christian religion has come. As Martin Luther said on his deathbed (I'm paraphrasing here) now any Milkmaid can start a new religion. Even Martin Luther had a momentary vision of what was to become. In our day and age, I see many parallels with the Hellenistic Age, when sects and cults multiplied greatly. The Hellenistic Age was one of great uncertainty, with many wars and societal instability. Just like today, when we live in an age of great uncertainty, and new denominations, sects, and cults are springing up with great regularity. What goes around comes around.
The Catholic belief in transubstantiation is based on the fact that our Lord said: "This is my body," rather than "Here is my body."
Thanks. That helps clear it up a bit; however, it still seems a bit of hairsplitting, as both definitions seem to say that the body and blood of Christ is within the wafer and wine. Am I interpreting this right, that with trans it is actual body and blood even though looking like wafer and wine, whereas with con it is body and blood somehow mixed in with still actual bread and wine?
" Why on earth are the worship practices of those who are Catholic any of your non-Catholic business?????"
Why do drivers slow down to look at a car wreck?
"Stop trying to stifle free speech on FREE Republic. That's why we are all on this website."
Good eye, Flaglady. :)
"Stop trying to stifle free speech on FREE Republic."
Wouldn't dream of it. Please do horn in on our family squabble.
"Denominationalism started with the Protestants, not the Catholic Church. We are not a denomination."
The word "church" is a translation of the Greek "ekklesia," which means "those who are called out." All Christians, whether they be catholic or non-catholic, are called out of the world by Jesus, thus we are all part of that body of people which the bible calls the "ekklesia." Any one group which is a subset of that body and which denominates itself by some name (e.g., catholic) is a denomination.
I'm as much a part of Jesus' church as you are. In as much as I am in communion with Jesus, I am in communion with His church. It's His Spirit in us which unifies us, not some outward allegience to a denominational subset of the church.
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