[HarleyD]

You said that man, in his wickedness, obeyed God to kill Christ. To you that's emulating Christ?

You have your "man is neutral" hat on. To me I think the scriptures are very plain that man is inherently corrupt. He cannot emulate Christ's behavior. Those who physically killed our Lord were unable to stop themselves from killing Goodness. And less you think we're anything special it says we're all guilty of this.

So, YES, God's will can be disobeyed and has been and continues to be disobeyed by man, exercising his free will daily, since Adam.

I would suggest you read Jonah. He didn't get very far.

If we can for a moment assume that He is also the author of evil, then He is evil by nature as well.

No one suggests that God is the author of evil. He allows evil. He uses evil to His advantage. And He directs evil for accomplishing His preordained will. But He isn't the author of evil. I would suggest reading Job.

Your problem rest in that it is impossible for you to explain my tagline.

[kosta50]

Selective responses, as usual. Just the way you read the Bible.

To me I think the scriptures are very plain that man is inherently corrupt

Nonsense! The Scripture leaves no doubt that God created man in His image and likeness, i.e. good. Good try Sherlock.

The nature of ancestral sin is that we lost our likeness to God, while remaining in His image. Therefore we are not dead. We are defective and wounded, distorted and deficient. The whole concept of salvation is to conform to the likeness of Christ once again and to regain the original state. Obviously, we can't do it on our own, but need God to help us. Instead of destroying all of humanity, He is dedicated to healing it and restoring it.

God's laws are inscribed in our hearts (Heb 8), which means we do know what is good and what is evil. The problem is that we want only that which is "good" for us (self-love), and that we are unwilling to love our neighbor as ourselves, let alone God with all our heart and mind and soul.

Those who killed Christ knew He was innocent. Pontius Pilate said so. The Jews picked Barabbas over Christ. God did not lead them to it. He simply knows what corrupt human nature wills in its arrogance and pride.

I am not sure why you keep spouting Job. I am asking you to re-read Genesis. The story of Genesis tells us that MAN DSIOBEYED GOD'S WILL, which can only mean that MAN CAN DISOBEY GOD IF HE OR SHE WILLS TO DISOBEY GOD, consequences notwithstanding. Maybe Job didn't last very long, but Adam lived to be 900 years old.

I don't know how to explain this to you in more simple terms. It is obvious to all except those who are captive of their own pride, that man is free to obey or disobey God, because God gave us the mind and the free will to use it. The Scripture makes that abundantly clear. Unless of course you believe that God made Adam disobey, which brings us back to the corrupt God and some kind of Protestant Theology 101.

[jo kus]

Harley, If I may make a suggestion?

It is clear that Scripture ALONE suggests both your point of view and a point of view that gives man free will. If you believe that the Scripture is the Word of God, you CANNOT just ignore verses that clearly tell us to choose between good and evil - or verses that tell us that we will be judged based on our deeds. That is why I think you will have to look at your system a bit and tweak it. Because quite honestly, you are ignoring lots of Scripture by saying man has not the free will to reject God. Might I suggest St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas? I doubt you will agree with Molina, but I think you will find a better fit among these Catholic theologians who try to take into account BOTH sides of what Scripture says. I think it is telling that the Church has not issued much in the way of dogma on this subject. Here, Harley, I honestly think we have reached a mystery of God - we really do not know the interaction between us and Him when we commit to an action.

I think if we do the best we can with what God has given us, we will be able to stand before the Judgment Seat of God and plead for His mercy with confidence that He will see that we tried to remain faithful to His calling, without understanding everything about it.

Regards

[Cronos]

I would suggest you read Jonah. He didn't get very far.

I'm glad you brought up Jonah. Jonah's case is veritable proof of free will. why?

1. God doesn't take over Jonah's mind and use him like a puppet-master does with a puppet. He tells Jonah to go, but Jonah disobeys -- how is that possible without the ability to go AGAINST God's plan?
2. God was initially set to destroy Nineveh, His rage against it was awesome. It was in God's plan to destroy Nineveh. But being a Loving God, he decided to give them a chance to repent. And when they did repent, God changed his plan. Can He do that? Yes, He is omnipotent. But then, doesn't that mean that it was not written down in stone at the beginning of all time? Isn't it true that God can do WHAT He likes, but yet choose to let Jonah decide, to let the people of Nineveh decide?