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To: HarleyD; kosta50; Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex
I would suggest you read Jonah. He didn't get very far.

I'm glad you brought up Jonah. Jonah's case is veritable proof of free will. why?
  1. God doesn't take over Jonah's mind and use him like a puppet-master does with a puppet. He tells Jonah to go, but Jonah disobeys -- how is that possible without the ability to go AGAINST God's plan?
  2. God was initially set to destroy Nineveh, His rage against it was awesome. It was in God's plan to destroy Nineveh. But being a Loving God, he decided to give them a chance to repent. And when they did repent, God changed his plan. Can He do that? Yes, He is omnipotent. But then, doesn't that mean that it was not written down in stone at the beginning of all time? Isn't it true that God can do WHAT He likes, but yet choose to let Jonah decide, to let the people of Nineveh decide?

1,844 posted on 01/22/2006 8:36:00 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Cronos; Forest Keeper
Jonah's case is veritable proof of free will. why?

Good point Croos.

1,850 posted on 01/22/2006 1:41:04 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Cronos; kosta50; Forest Keeper; jo kus; annalex

1) God wanted to go to Nineveh
2) Jonah didn't want to
3) Jonah heads in the other direction
4) God commands BIG fish to swallow Jonah
5) Jonah sat in BIG, stinking fish for 3 days rethinking his decision
6) Jonah decides Nineveh doesn't look as bad as the insides of a fish
7) Jonah repents and heads to Nineveh

And this is an example of man's free will? Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttt.


1,856 posted on 01/22/2006 2:52:43 PM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: Cronos; HarleyD
It was in God's plan to destroy Nineveh. But being a Loving God, he decided to give them a chance to repent. And when they did repent, God changed his plan. Can He do that? Yes, He is omnipotent. But then, doesn't that mean that it was not written down in stone at the beginning of all time? Isn't it true that God can do WHAT He likes, but yet choose to let Jonah decide, to let the people of Nineveh decide?

In your view, does God make up His plan as He goes along? Does God experience time as we do? Does God wait for our input before deciding what is going to happen next, thereby denying Him omniscience? Why would He need to change anything if He already knows what is going to happen, why wouldn't those events already be incorporated into the original "perfect" plan? (No truly perfect plan can change unless there are unknown variables. For God, are there unknown variables?)

I ask because by my view for God to change His plan would require Him to admit that He was wrong about the original plan. Else, why change it? Of course it is true that God CAN do what He likes, the question for us is what WILL He do? To the best of human ability, we have an idea based on our knowledge of His nature and His promises. The Bible tells us that He is perfect in will (plan) and knowledge (omniscience), along with many other things. How do you combine a perfect will with perfect knowledge and come up with changes?

1,887 posted on 01/23/2006 6:38:30 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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