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To: HarleyD
Harley, If I may make a suggestion?

It is clear that Scripture ALONE suggests both your point of view and a point of view that gives man free will. If you believe that the Scripture is the Word of God, you CANNOT just ignore verses that clearly tell us to choose between good and evil - or verses that tell us that we will be judged based on our deeds. That is why I think you will have to look at your system a bit and tweak it. Because quite honestly, you are ignoring lots of Scripture by saying man has not the free will to reject God. Might I suggest St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas? I doubt you will agree with Molina, but I think you will find a better fit among these Catholic theologians who try to take into account BOTH sides of what Scripture says. I think it is telling that the Church has not issued much in the way of dogma on this subject. Here, Harley, I honestly think we have reached a mystery of God - we really do not know the interaction between us and Him when we commit to an action.

I think if we do the best we can with what God has given us, we will be able to stand before the Judgment Seat of God and plead for His mercy with confidence that He will see that we tried to remain faithful to His calling, without understanding everything about it.

Regards

1,826 posted on 01/21/2006 12:28:05 PM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
It is clear that Scripture ALONE suggests both your point of view

No, it is not so. Isolated verses in the Scripture might suggest absence of free will. The Scripture as a whole is clear on Man's faculty of free will. Harely goes not by Scripture alone but by 10% of the Scripture alone. Likewise, if you open your car manual where it described the engine, and find no reference to the steering wheel, you would be foolish to suggest that the car manual denies the presence of a steering wheel. Vice versa, if you only looked at the passages that describe the steering system, you would be wrong to conclude that cars have no engines.

You are asking Herley to read the entire Book. That is asking him to reject protestantism. There will be no sale.

1,828 posted on 01/21/2006 1:35:28 PM PST by annalex
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To: jo kus
It is clear that Scripture ALONE suggests both your point of view and a point of view that gives man free will. If you believe that the Scripture is the Word of God, you CANNOT just ignore verses that clearly tell us to choose between good and evil - or verses that tell us that we will be judged based on our deeds.

I'm not ignoring the text. It goes back to Augustine's puzzlement over Ezekiel 18 and 36 about putting the new heart in a person. God must give us what He commands. Once He has given us what He has commanded, then He commands what He has given to us. If God gives us the faith to carry out something, than we will carry it out simply because God gave us the faith to do so.

I am absolutely convinced that Augustine was EXACTLY right and this is the way God operates in everything. Don't ask to explain WHY He operates this way simply because our ways are not God's ways.

Those who hold to "free will" are simply imputing man's nature on God. God calls man to repent but HE must give us what HE commands. You would say that He has already provided us with this "power" but this is Pelagius argument. Augustine said, "No". We do NOT have this power until given to us by God and the fact is that God gives it selectively. Man's steps are ordained by the Lord.

I have no problem in reconciling "free will" verses simply because I can say that man does have that commandment of God but is unable to exercise the will to do the commandment until God gives him the power. You, OTOH, will never be able to reconcile verses like my tagline.

1,858 posted on 01/22/2006 3:15:36 PM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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