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To: kosta50; Cronos
Thus, knowing that Judas (on his own will, lack of faith and greed) intended to betray Christ is why Christ chose him, but Christ did not make Judas betray Him.

Like I said, God got pretty lucky that there was someone around who lacked faith, had greed, and was willing to go through the incredibly elaborate charade that Judas performed in order to betray the Son of Man. Judas was accepted and mingled with the others all the way through. It must have taken quite a performance. God didn't cause it of course, but you have to admit that God caught a pretty decent break with this Judas guy.

The error of the Protestant mindset is that all the blame goes to God!

I believe you seriously misunderstand us. We do not blame God for anything. Instead, we celebrate as God's plan is revealed and fulfilled before us. We do not delight that Judas betrayed Jesus, but we do recognize that this was in accordance with God's plan, and led to what is the reason our salvation is possible. There is absolute glory in that, and it all belongs to God.

Also, it is not true that everything is the way it was meant to be. God has unlimited options and can change His mind as He pleases. Thus, in 2 Kings 20: 1-5 it is obvious that God did change King Hezekia's predistined death, ...

If you believe that God actually changed His mind then you must also believe that when God called out to Adam in the Garden: "Where are you?", it was because God did not know. You might further believe that Abraham got the best of God during their "bargaining" in Gen. 18:20-33 over Sodom because Abraham was a superior negotiator. This is hilarious to me because it is you guys who attack us for humanizing God. Unlike you, we say that God knows what He is doing.

1,123 posted on 01/12/2006 3:11:05 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; Cronos; annalex; jo kus; Kolokotronis
If you believe that God actually changed His mind then you must also believe that when God called out to Adam in the Garden: "Where are you?", it was because God did not know

Yes I do believe that God does what is proper and what is best for us in real time. We are not the nails He uses for his Plan, but His children.

You are deliberately ignoring the fact that the verses in 2 Kings 20 show that God adjusts His plan as He sees fit. And you are deliberately denying that the Bible is full of examples where God changes His mind as He sees fit:

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart" (Gen 6:6)

"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people" (Ex 32:14)

"Then Hezekiah repented of the pride of his heart, as did the people of Jerusalem; therefore the LORD's wrath did not come upon them during the days of Hezekiah." (2 Chron 32:6)

"Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent? You must decide, not I; so tell me what you know." (Jon 32:33)

"In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it" (Isa 30:15)

"The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD" (Isa 59:20)

"and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned" (Jer 18:8)

The Bible full of references to repentance being associated with God changing the course of our destination.

God's plan will be accomplished according to His will. There is nothing to suggest that God cannot or does not change His mind in the course of our salvation or damnation. The Protestant notion of God being a captive of His own Plan is nonsense.

God foresees an infinite number of possibilities and He can pick any at any time relative to us. They all lead to the conclusion of His work, on His terms. But that doesn't mean that we are pre-destined to be saved or to perish so that His plan may come to pass, or that our free will somehow affects the outcome of His plan, as Protestant pre-destination suggests.

1,141 posted on 01/12/2006 8:51:18 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper
Like I said, God got pretty lucky that there was someone around who lacked faith, had greed, and was willing to go through the incredibly elaborate charade that Judas performed in order to betray the Son of Man

No. God KNEW Judas would betray Him, however, God did not MAKE Judas betray Him.
1,297 posted on 01/12/2006 9:53:35 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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To: Forest Keeper
I believe you seriously misunderstand us.

Perhaps, but by your logic, you state that God has directed that person A will sin in this way and will go to hell, according to God's plan. What we say is that God KNOWS and SEES the person sinning, however, he does not plan, he does not force someone to Hell. The person choses it of his own choice. In your version we see God planning -- Aha! Person X will sin and fry.
1,298 posted on 01/12/2006 10:06:39 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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